+1 on Bose Quite Comfort 20 earbuds - BMW K1600 Forum : BMW K1600 GT and GTL Forums
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post #1 of 16 Old 06-18-2019, 05:31 PM Thread Starter
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+1 on Bose Quite Comfort 20 earbuds

I rode today for the first time with my new Bose QC 20's earbuds. Yeah boy, they do work as advertised. I was seeking a significant reduction in wind noise while riding and the QC 20's solved my problem. Here's what I ride with as relates to wind noise: 2014 GTL, AeroFlow hybrid windscreen (used in warm to hot weather), Arai Quantum X helmet/full face, AeroFlow wings and miniwings. Peace at long last has arrived.
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post #2 of 16 Old 06-18-2019, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by BruceHarrisJr View Post
I rode today for the first time with my new Bose QC 20's earbuds. Yeah boy, they do work as advertised. I was seeking a significant reduction in wind noise while riding and the QC 20's solved my problem. Here's what I ride with as relates to wind noise: 2014 GTL, AeroFlow hybrid windscreen (used in warm to hot weather), Arai Quantum X helmet/full face, AeroFlow wings and miniwings. Peace at long last has arrived.

Now, if Cardo would just license the technology, incorporate it into the PackTalk Bold, and make the noise cancellation work flawlessly through the JBL helmet speakers, instead of needing earbuds . . .
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post #3 of 16 Old 06-18-2019, 08:49 PM
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Yep, I sure appreciate mine too. I like them much more than my $750 Sensaphonics, which just sit in my desk now.

For even more noise reduction, use ComplyFoam T-400 tips on the Bose QC-20.

I just bought a 19Ē 7Jurock windshield and while it doesnít offer quite as much wind protection as the 22Ē Cee Bailey it replaces, the popping sounds I experienced with the Bose and the Cee Bailey is virtually eliminated. I am VERY impressed with the Bose.
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post #4 of 16 Old 06-20-2019, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by atc250r View Post
For even more noise reduction, use ComplyFoam T-400 tips on the Bose QC-20.

I ordered a set of Comply T-400 based on your recommendation. I like quiet. Just received and tried these.

IMHO:


  • no discernable noise reduction vs. the stock tips of the correct size--might even be less effective than stock
  • WAY less comfortable than the stock tips, especially the plastic tip retention feature that protrudes when using the Comply tips
  • Junk; garbage; snake oil; do not waste your money


I harbor no ill will for the recommendation, but no good for me.
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post #5 of 16 Old 06-20-2019, 06:02 PM
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Now, if Cardo would just license the technology, incorporate it into the PackTalk Bold, and make the noise cancellation work flawlessly through the JBL helmet speakers, instead of needing earbuds . . .
It wouldn't work. Noise Cancellation requires a positive seal or as close as you can get to it. I personally am not a big fan of NC headphones/earbuds they are fatiguing over long periods of use. You are much better off getting custom in ear monitors which can provide much better noise isolation and much higher quality audio quality.

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post #6 of 16 Old 06-20-2019, 07:00 PM
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It wouldn't work. Noise Cancellation requires a positive seal or as close as you can get to it.

Not true.

It is more difficult, but does not require a seal, or even close, particularly at longer wavelengths.

The greater the distance between the ear and the input mic for the active noise cancellation system, compared to the size of the wavelength, the more difficult it is. The longer the wavelength, the less critical the distance, and the easier it is. A helmet speaker is still fairly close to the ear. It would not be quite as good as in-ear at the higher frequency edge of the effective noise cancellation envelope, but it could be quite good . . . and without having to wear $hit in your ears all day.
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post #7 of 16 Old 06-20-2019, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by phat6 View Post
I ordered a set of Comply T-400 based on your recommendation. I like quiet. Just received and tried these.

IMHO:


  • no discernable noise reduction vs. the stock tips of the correct size--might even be less effective than stock
  • WAY less comfortable than the stock tips, especially the plastic tip retention feature that protrudes when using the Comply tips
  • Junk; garbage; snake oil; do not waste your money


I harbor no ill will for the recommendation, but no good for me.
Interesting. I just ordered another set of the T-400ís. To each their own. Just glad we agree that the QC-20ís are AWESOME
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post #8 of 16 Old 06-20-2019, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by phat6 View Post
Not true.

It is more difficult, but does not require a seal, or even close, particularly at longer wavelengths.

The greater the distance between the ear and the input mic for the active noise cancellation system, compared to the size of the wavelength, the more difficult it is. The longer the wavelength, the less critical the distance, and the easier it is. A helmet speaker is still fairly close to the ear. It would not be quite as good as in-ear at the higher frequency edge of the effective noise cancellation envelope, but it could be quite good . . . and without having to wear $hit in your ears all day.
I shouldn't have said 'won't work', I should have said "More difficult to the point of not being practical"

There is a reason that most noise canceling systems have a relatively high natural/passive attenuation, it simply limits the design considerations and puts them into the pragmatic/solvable realm. If you grab one of those headphones and lift it off your head even a little bit they lose most of their effectiveness simply because they weren't designed to deal with multipath/diffraction problems you would encounter with less of an acoustical seal.

In general;

The reason that these systems work as effectively as they do is that the sound sampled at the mic is the only sound that the internal electronics have to filter and flip in phase. If that sound has multiple paths to the ear (as in through other openings) it will be way LESS effective and the design will become much more power hungry and complex.

From Electronic Design

Designing For Feed-Forward
With a feed-forward topology, the designer analyzes the acoustics of the headset to determine how the noise is affected by the time it reaches the ear, in terms of frequency, phase, and amplitude. This transfer function, G(w), is then modeled electrically and inserted between the microphone and speaker.

Feed-forward designs can be subject to directional issues, so the microphone must be omnidirectional. Also, the noise channel canít be mechanically concentrated. Because the microphone must acquire the noise before it gets to the ear, parallel acoustic paths must be minimized.


The only way around this is to use a feedback design (or hybrid) which quickly becomes problematic due to cost and implementation issues.

IOW, it just won't work well to try to solve it at the helmet speaker level, its not impossible but if you care about music quality, and you don't want to spend a ton of money on the solution (~ >$1K) then just use earbuds.

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post #9 of 16 Old 06-21-2019, 02:15 AM
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Originally Posted by earthling View Post
parallel acoustic paths must be minimized

it just won't work well to try to solve it at the helmet speaker level, its not impossible

You seem to be ignoring frequency. I am sure we could get deep into the details and leave everyone else bored.

What I said is accurate. What you said in the quote above, is accurate at shorter wavelengths; I agree with you at higher frequencies.

Perhaps my previous post was unclear. My apologies for boring everyone.

At 20 Hz for example, the distance between a helmet speaker + cancellation mic setup, and the ear drum, is not going to make much difference. Multiple paths are nearly irrelevant. Active noise cancellation at lower frequencies would not be difficult to do with helmet speakers. Active noise cancellation inside automobiles, buildings, etc work this way--there are no microphones near your ears, and the paths are nearly omnidirectional.

At shorter wavelengths, such as wavelengths shorter than the distance between the helmet speaker and the eardum, yes, it becomes much more difficult. Somewhere around 1 kHz or so, it is going to become increasingly challenging. With multiple paths, at higher frequencies . . . it is like trying to invert chaos.

It is MUCH easier to block higher frequencies by absorption means, like ear plugs, padding, panels, noise control, etc.

It is MUCH easier to mitigate lower frequencies with active cancellation.

You sound like you dabble in electrical engineering, so let me try this metaphor: at lower frequencies, active noise cancellation operates in a "far field" like model; there are no significant multiple paths.

Make sense?
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post #10 of 16 Old 06-21-2019, 02:20 AM
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Originally Posted by atc250r View Post
Just glad we agree that the QC-20ís are AWESOME

To be clear, my opinion is:

  • the noise cancellation is very good
  • the fidelity is not very good, but on a motorcycle, not in a critical listening environment, the noise reduction is of significantly greater benefit than the low fidelity is a detriment
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