Honda going after the K1600 B market - Page 3 - BMW K1600 Forum : BMW K1600 GT and GTL Forums
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post #21 of 38 Old 04-04-2019, 09:17 AM
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To compete, GL1800 engine doesn't need more cc's. It needs a redesign. At 72 mm ◊ 67.5 mm bore/stroke, K16 is considered a long stroke engine, but it is still very over-squared compared to GL's 74 mm ◊ 71 mm bore/stroke. Up to 5000rpm, the GL runs neck to neck with the K16. Above that, the BMW's better volumetric efficiency and higher compression (12.2:1 vs 9.8:1) gives it a top range that Honda doesn't have.

Honda needs to get rid of the lumbering 2-valve engine and drag its knuckles into the 21st Century. But, or course, that costs R&D yen. I suspect Honda sees the big luxury yachts as a dying breed and doesn't want to sink any more into it than necessary. They figure most GL pilots rarely rev past 5k anyway, so why make it do things most owners won't take advantage of. It's one thing to bench race with numbers and charts, but out on the open road, it would take some serious thrashing for a K16 to pull away from a GL. And that's just not how these beasts are ridden the vast majority of the time. And yes, I have ridden with Goldwings. Even at a spirited pace, there is little need to venture upstairs.


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post #22 of 38 Old 04-04-2019, 09:45 AM
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That's pretty funny calling it "the K1600B market." It was BMW that came up with the B to go after the bagger/cruiser market. BMW does something whacky like this every decade or so like remember the C model bikes?
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post #23 of 38 Old 04-04-2019, 10:02 AM
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I owned a 1998 Valkyrie standard and rode it longer and more miles than any of the bikes I owned before or since. I just liked everything about it. Itís massive size and length, that it was a power cruiser and decidedly not H-D. Super fun to ride aggressively with feet below you rather than feet foreward.



I had a lot of old Valk rider friends who went to the new 2000cc Wing when it was introduced but I just wasnít ready to go to a full-on touring rig. When the FB came out, I was interested but in the end, a low slung cruiser wasnít in my wheelhouse to buy.

Since, I just bought my second K1600GT (had a Ď12 back in 2013-14) and both set up with emphasis on sport rather than touring. The GT is the right K16 iteration for me. The new Wings look very good but they still donít have a sport machine in the same segment with the sporting GT.
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post #24 of 38 Old 04-04-2019, 10:24 AM
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... I just liked everything about it.
Kept mine for 18 years and about 90k miles, absolutely HATED 6 carbs and a fuel system that couldn't handle ethanol (actually dissolved petcocks/screens etc.). Enough to finally sell it. Great bike for it's time.

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post #25 of 38 Old 04-04-2019, 11:01 AM
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Doubt it, or at least doubt it will be effective.


Ridden Hondas my entire life until I bought my B. The last new Honda I bought was the Rune. Still own it--sweet machine. So why did I choose to a buy a non-Honda for the first time in my life? Honda has been sitting on their complacent butts in regard to power for nearly two decades. While they were sleeping, I test rode the BMW K1600GTL when it first came out. Loved the power, was not comfortable on the bike, and was neither inspired nor horrified by the styling. Waited for Honda to bring more power in response to the K1600. Nothing . . . nothing . . . 3 years . . . 5 years . . . nothing . . . then the K1600B came out, which fixed a lot of the comfort issues, and I like the styling much better. I still continued to hold off the itch for another year. Still nothing from Honda. Bought a K1600B.



So here comes yet another variant on the Goldwing, with still no increase in power. Waste of marketing, engineering, and manufacturing bandwidth. Nowhere near as sexy as the Rune (manufactured 15 years ago at this point). I hear there is a new Valkyrie coming also, with more styling cues from the Rune, but still not as good, and still no increase in power. The Rune, a bike manufactured by Honda 15 years ago, has way better styling and just as much power as what they are producing today.



What would get me to buy another Honda? How about a 240 hp, 2444 cc, Flat-8, 240 rear equipped, Rune II with another forward-warping style revolution?


Same old Goldwing with different tupperware? Wake TF up, Honda!
I agree with you, but having owned two Goldwings and spending eight years on the Goldwing forum, Iím not ready to blame Honda. Most Goldwing owners are incredibly loyal and they think the GW was already a sport bike.

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post #26 of 38 Old 04-04-2019, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Volfy View Post
To compete, GL1800 engine doesn't need more cc's. It needs a redesign. At 72 mm ◊ 67.5 mm bore/stroke, K16 is considered a long stroke engine, but it is still very over-squared compared to GL's 74 mm ◊ 71 mm bore/stroke. Up to 5000rpm, the GL runs neck to neck with the K16. Above that, the BMW's better volumetric efficiency and higher compression (12.2:1 vs 9.8:1) gives it a top range that Honda doesn't have.

Honda needs to get rid of the lumbering 2-valve engine and drag its knuckles into the 21st Century. But, or course, that costs R&D yen. I suspect Honda sees the big luxury yachts as a dying breed and doesn't want to sink any more into it than necessary. They figure most GL pilots rarely rev past 5k anyway, so why make it do things most owners won't take advantage of. It's one thing to bench race with numbers and charts, but out on the open road, it would take some serious thrashing for a K16 to pull away from a GL. And that's just not how these beasts are ridden the vast majority of the time. And yes, I have ridden with Goldwings. Even at a spirited pace, there is little need to venture upstairs.


The new 1833cc engine does indeed have 4 valves per cylinder, but the horsepower output is still (IMHO) lacking. I sold my 2010 Goldwing and now a GA resides in it's place. Honda dropped the ball on two fronts: horsepower and luggage capacity. I think Honda could have gotten more HP out of the current engine, but chose not to for longevity. I was willing to live with "only" 100HP, but the lack of storage was a deal killer for me. Harley still has the best luggage: top opening saddlebags and a trunk you can open with a helmet on the seat.
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post #27 of 38 Old 04-04-2019, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Volfy View Post
To compete, GL1800 engine doesn't need more cc's. It needs a redesign. At 72 mm ◊ 67.5 mm bore/stroke, K16 is considered a long stroke engine, but it is still very over-squared compared to GL's 74 mm ◊ 71 mm bore/stroke. Up to 5000rpm, the GL runs neck to neck with the K16. Above that, the BMW's better volumetric efficiency and higher compression (12.2:1 vs 9.8:1) gives it a top range that Honda doesn't have.

Honda needs to get rid of the lumbering 2-valve engine and drag its knuckles into the 21st Century. But, or course, that costs R&D yen. I suspect Honda sees the big luxury yachts as a dying breed and doesn't want to sink any more into it than necessary. They figure most GL pilots rarely rev past 5k anyway, so why make it do things most owners won't take advantage of. It's one thing to bench race with numbers and charts, but out on the open road, it would take some serious thrashing for a K16 to pull away from a GL. And that's just not how these beasts are ridden the vast majority of the time. And yes, I have ridden with Goldwings. Even at a spirited pace, there is little need to venture upstairs.

Actually that graph reinforces what Goldwing owners want....low/mid range torque. And to be clear, if my wife had not stopped riding with me I would still own a Goldwing for my two up riding.

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post #28 of 38 Old 04-04-2019, 11:14 AM
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I agree with you, but having owned two Goldwings and spending eight years on the Goldwing forum, I’m not ready to blame Honda. Most Goldwing owners are incredibly loyal and they think the GW was already a sport bike.
I agree only to the point that this is the problem (incredibly loyal owners aren’t necessarily customers) and for Honda there is no solution. Honda manufactures on a much larger scale than BMW, why would they design and build for a shrinking market where even their “incredibly loyal” owner isn’t a purchasing customer. Goldwings and ST’s have the same problem - owners complain about non innovation but then a large portion who haven’t upgraded in 8 or more years won’t be purchasing anything new anyway. The ST community complains but many are still arguing their 1100 is superior to the 12 year old 1300, then wonder why Honda won’t upgrade the 1300.

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post #29 of 38 Old 04-04-2019, 11:38 AM
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I agree only to the point that this is the problem (incredibly loyal owners arenít necessarily customers) and for Honda there is no solution. Honda manufactures on a much larger scale than BMW, why would they design and build for a shrinking market where even their ďincredibly loyalĒ owner isnít a purchasing customer. Goldwings and STís have the same problem - owners complain about non innovation but then a large portion who havenít upgraded in 8 or more years wonít be purchasing anything new anyway. The ST community complains but many are still arguing their 1100 is superior to the 12 year old 1300, then wonder why Honda wonít upgrade the 1300.

Tom
Sales numbers will answer the question. Iím on your side....I left Honda for the same reasons.

Jim
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post #30 of 38 Old 04-04-2019, 12:11 PM
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The new 1833cc engine does indeed have 4 valves per cylinder, but the horsepower output is still (IMHO) lacking. I sold my 2010 Goldwing and now a GA resides in it's place. Honda dropped the ball on two fronts: horsepower and luggage capacity. I think Honda could have gotten more HP out of the current engine, but chose not to for longevity. I was willing to live with "only" 100HP, but the lack of storage was a deal killer for me. Harley still has the best luggage: top opening saddlebags and a trunk you can open with a helmet on the seat.
My bad. I was reading specs off the previous 1832cc.

Honda knows putting the GL on a Slimfast diet is gonna piss off a bunch of diehard fans, but they are desperately trying to appeal to a younger crowd. IMO, trying to make the bike appeal to too wide an audience will end up making nobody completely happy, just like what happened with the VFR1200F. What they should've done is update the GL for the loyal fan base, and come out with a ST1300 replacement. I prefer a V4, but realistic any number of engine configs would work, as long as it is a 650-700 lbs sport tourer with some genuine sporting intent.

Instead of being unapologetically big and powerful, the new Wing is too much for some and not enough for others.

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