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Lessons from the field: Slow Speed School

12K views 55 replies 21 participants last post by  Harbinger 
#1 · (Edited)
I periodically go back to school - especially when I need to tweak my slow speed skills. Today I ran a basic class hosted by FishTail in New Hampshire.

My takeaways are this:
1. As good as I think I am I suck.
2. The Grand (and I presume all of the K's) have a very short clutch throw and a very reactive throttle; even in Harley [rain] mode.

I have struggled to find the precise dance of clutch/throttle/rear brake on this bike, and I now know it is real by watching several others working their respective bikes. I found the short clutch made for some very interesting reactions and required a lot of concentration to manipulate. By this I mean the friction point becomes quickly engaged fully. I also felt the throttle reacted quickly. I went from 900 idle to 2500 RPMs with very little movement of my wrist; the net effect was I rev'd up a lot needlessly.

I found I had to leave the throttle closed and actually use my rear brake quite a bit to keep my speed down too with the clutch out.

All-in-all these are just characteristics of the platform and I need to become familiar with it for what it is. I can say that a slow speed course - especially an advanced one - is very challenging on this bike.

My freakin' forearms are on fire tonight. Clearly I need to practice more.
 
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#9 ·
With my blessings Madam. If it becomes a meem I get to claim part of it.
 
#3 ·
Yeah these aren’t so easy to maneuver at very slow speeds like some other larger bikes. Imo it’s the clutch. I just can’t get it as smooth as say a Goldwing. Maybe it’s me? Smoothest is when I can engage clutch faster rather than slowly
 
#4 ·
I’m scheduled to take a 2-day Motor Authority Course at the BMW Performance Center in Greer, SC in a couple of weeks, so I’m sure I’ll have similar experiences, although they use various GS models for training.
 
#10 ·
Other bikes like HD and Goldwings seem to have a larger friction zone than these BMW's. That is more of the issue than the throttle response in my opinion. The BMW clutch is closer to flipping a light switch OFF/ON where some other bikes are more like a dimmer switch. So it's easier to use the friction zone and not even use a throttle on those bikes. If that makes sense. You can certainly get used to it and increase your skills with more practice like you say and I agree whole heatedly with you about riders being able to master the slow speed maneuvers. They make better fast riders. You can't ride fast well until you learn to ride slow.
 
#12 ·
Your comments about the clutch on a Harley-Davidson used to be true, but not since they have switched to their own home grown hydraulic clutch. They have a very small grey area now similar to our K1600's, but it is quite far out requiring close to full finger extension for some people. Adjusting the clutch lever to come "in" a little is not an option on Harleys unless you purchase an aftermarket clutch lever. I for one greatly dislike the new Harley-Davidson hydraulic clutch because it requires almost full finger extension for me.


I have made the foolish attempt a few times at taking my K1600 through a police slow cone course and it's an exercise in futility. The K1600 was never meant to make 18' and 17' turns in quick rapid succession. It will do alright in a single tight turn, but don't try to force it back quickly in something like a double 360 degree pattern or what we call a "W" pattern which is three 18' 180 degree turns in back to back fashion. You will soon learn just how heavy a K1600 is to pick up.


The other thing that fights us in making tight maneuvers on the K1600 is the throttle. All you have to do is just "touch" the throttle a little bit and it almost immediately leaps from idle to about 2000 rpm's which is way too much power. I am most successful if I leave the throttle at idle and regulate my power via the clutch and feathering of the rear brake. Feathering is the key word here, not standing on it. Once you get good at doing this you will be amazed at how far this bike will lean over and how tight it naturally turns. Unfortunately you have to realize part of the learning curve will most certainly include a few drops, but that's the price you pay. Good guard bars are a must have item for this. Just remember even a little bit of positive power to the rear wheel will help you avoid falling over.

Taking a slow speed riding course may not sound like a lot of fun for the "go fast" crowd, but the techniques learned at slow speed will make you a much better rider and more confident rider. No more two feet down to stop or take off, no more looking like a goose coming in for a landing and no more walking the bike at slow speed. It's a great feeling when you master something as simple as slow speed riding.

Rick H.
 
#14 ·
On the subject of the high-speed school; my understanding this is about finding the line and rolling the throttle. Outside-inside-outside, find the apex and how to roll the throttle and how to trail brake; please correct me if wrong.

The slow speed schools are about the relationship of clutch/throttle/rear brake, and of the use of balance and counter steering. The clutch range on this platform is very short; I wonder if this is software adjustable? Clearly, engagement pressures are variable and controllable. Why, using better software, cannot these clutch throws be manipulated?
 
#18 ·
The clutch range on this platform is very short; I wonder if this is software adjustable?
Nope, the clutch is purely hydraulic. The throttle is wired, meaning you can adjust sensitivity through software (Rain, Road, Dynamic).

As mentioned above, there are aftermarket companies that make replacement slave cylinders with larger bores that can give a lighter or more progressive clutch feel. I know they do so for the K12/13 bikes, but I haven't heard of one for the K16 bikes.

Then again, I haven't really looked into it, as my '13 GTL clutch seems plenty smooth and progressive.
 
#16 ·
.
2. The Grand (and I presume all of the K's) have a very short clutch throw and a very reactive throttle; even in Harley [rain] mode.

I used to be an MSF Instrutor. My wife was my "Cone Bitch" (her choice of moniker). Becaue I was a Military Instructor, the participants took the basic course on their own bikes (as opposed to range bikes, which we didn't have) and almost every class had that one guy who claimed they were unable to do the slow-mo maneuvers because their bike was too big or too heavy.

When that would happen I would load the wife on the back of the K11LT and we'd demo the maneuvers 2-Up. That opened more than a few eyes... To say we were smooth and precise together on that bike would be a big understatement.

Not so much on the K16.

The BIGGEST problem I have with the K16 doing slow-mo maneuvers is not the width of the Friction Zone, rather it is the random nature of the Friction Zone. It moves... Sometimes fullly engaged is right near the grip and before the lever is even half-way out, sometimes it is near the end of the throw and my fingers are nearly fully etended before the clutch is fully engaged.

There seems to be no correlation between the position of the Friction Zone and anything else I can narrow down. Not ambient heat, not engine heat, not ride length... Nothing. Sometimes it moves as quickly as being totally different from one traffic light to the next.

Until/unless I can get a grip on this Friction Zone issue, I will never be as good on the K16 as I was on the K11.

The good thing is that the K16 has so much low-end torque that in "real world" applications you can put it in 2nd gear and just let it idle. You can do pretty much anything you want with little concern of stalling the motor.
 
#19 ·
Learning slow speed manoeuvres and doing track days are all excellent training, no question. But I think the best kind of training isn't currently provided and is more applicable to real world scenarios. For example, if a course were designed where the rider is going fairly fast and leaning into a corner, and pop-up obstacles that simulate the sudden appearance of a deer or oncoming car could be used, it would provide the best training because it's in those real-life scenarios where the margin of error is so small, and where minute alterations would have to be practiced over and over to gain the skill required to hopefully avoid a collision. Those real-world scenarios scare the crap out of me because I realize I'm ill-prepared to realistically handle them.
 
#22 ·
Those real-world scenarios scare the crap out of me because I realize I'm ill-prepared to realistically handle them.
You need three things to survive the unexpected:

1) Keep your brain engaged and alert, so that you can see scenarios developing before they become critical. And always have a safe path planned.

2) Keep your physical skills up, so that you can successfully take appropriate evasive action. And keep your bike well maintained so that you can trust it to respond as expected.

3) ATGATT, just in case the above fails...

You can't possibly train for every possible scenario. But you can train yourself to be alert and responsive to whatever comes your way.

There are times when I realize that my body has already started taking evasive action before I fully realized the threat. That may be as simple as moving over a lane to get away from a suspect driver, but it means that my brain is fully engaged and my skills are deeply ingrained.

And that's how you stay alive out there...
 
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#20 ·
“Taking a slow speed riding course may not sound like a lot of fun for the "go fast" crowd, but the techniques learned at slow speed will make you a much better rider and more confident rider. No more two feet down to stop or take off, no more looking like a goose coming in for a landing and no more walking the bike at slow speed. It's a great feeling when you master something as simple as slow speed riding.”

I could not agree more. I am very fortunate to have a franchise of “Ride Like a Pro” very local to me. I took their course the first time in 2010 when I jumped from a Honda 750 to a Kawi 1400 and quickly realized the need for some low-speed skill enhancement. I got so much out of the class that over the next 8 years I took it three more times, each time dragging along friends who I knew really needed it too. In total, I got 6 of my friends to take the class and every single one said they only wished they had taken it 20 years earlier! Combine comparable training with Total Control or a non-sport bike track day or any of the other great training opportunities and you can really boost your riding skills and confidence level.
 
#21 ·
In total, I got 6 of my friends to take the class and every single one said they only wished they had taken it 20 years earlier!
The most satisfying part of teaching MSF courses was when the dudes who started Day 1 with, "I am only here to get my base decal. I've been riding since you were shittin' yellow and there ain't nothing you can teach me!" came up to me afterward and admitted they'd learned valuable skills and realized how much more they needed to learn. The number of classes I taught where this didn't happen can be counted on one hand.
 
#25 ·
My parents had a deal where if one of them got a ticket, they would have to pay an equivalent cash fine to the other. Over the years, that worked out much better for my mom than my dad.

My wife found this fascinating, and thought we should have the same deal.

I politely but vehemently declined... :k16:
 
#30 ·
"Then I read something she's written, and her skill, dexterity, and pure passion comes through, drawing you into magical new worlds and elevating her works beyond simply telling a tale. That doesn't make me a bad writer—it just shows what one can achieve with years of dedicated practice to hone a natural talent."

I like this last part .. well said and very true!
Pardon the momentary highjack but how do I quote just a portion of a post? In this case here, I just did the old copy and paste method but I know there's a better way.
 
#31 · (Edited)
I like this last part .. well said and very true!
Thanks.

It's funny, when you tell someone you're a writer, they immediately say "Have I read anything you've written?" How the hëll would I know what you've read?

Then they tell you about the awesome novel they wrote in high school, or the amazing plot idea they had that would make a great book/movie/TV show, if you'll only write it and give them credit (meaning lots of cash when it obviously sells for millions).

It'd be like meeting Valentino Rossi and saying "You know, I'm a rider too, and I even did a track day once. We're just the same!"

No, you're really not...

Pardon the momentary highjack but how do I quote just a portion of a post?
If you click on the > Quote button at the bottom of a post, it opens an Edit box and copies the entire quoted post in-between opening quote and closing /quote tags.

You can then edit the quoted post the same as yours, as long as you leave the quote tags in place.

If I want to split up the quotes and respond individually to certain lines, I just have to copy the initial quote tag at the beginning of the quoted material, and follow up with a closing /quote tag at the end. Then I can type my responses in-between the quoted blocks of text.
 
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#32 ·
I have been teaching police officers how to operate motor cycles for a very long time and one of the many things that's difficult to get across to them is never let your eyes linger on one spot for too long. A good motorcycle rider is constantly scanning what he or she is approaching and making an evaluation regarding impending threats to their safety. This is really difficult to get implanted in someone that just does not have an awareness of their environment and surprisingly a lot of police officers, especially newer ones, don't have that situational awareness. Most come into our training with the standard MSF definition of looking/scanning down the road, but they just don't get how important it is to not just look down the road, but also to the sides of the road and that you adjust your visual area based on traffic and environmental considerations.

My other issue is with trying to instill in new operators the importance of not following too close. I swear people have no idea what two seconds behind someone else means or one car length for every 10 miles per hour. I guess this should come as no surprise to me as most "customers" I would discuss this with when I was still an active LEO seemed to feel one car length was adequate in most situations weather and speed be damned. Crazy world we live in.

Rick H.
 
#33 ·
Second gear. That's what works for me. Harley's low end torque makes it easy to idle around. Our torque is higher up on the power band. This was suggested by a ride like a pro instructor. It works for me.
 
#35 ·
Interesting thread..... my $0.02 on the subject....... I ride two bikes, the GTL and an Indian Springfield. My self assessment on my low speed maneuvering is that I’m decent; not excellent but decent enough to consistently make a U-turn within 24 ft.
I find the K bike to be easier on tight turns than the Indian because a) it’s easier to counterbalance (riding posture makes it easier for me to load the outside peg with my weight) and b) it has a shorter wheelbase.
I experimented keeping the K bike on 1st or on 2nd. After a lot of back and forth I find myself being on 1st most of the times. Primary reason is it feels snappier to throttle response when I’m on the verge of falling and need immediate power to straighten up the bike. Most probably it’s the combination of clutch, throttle and rear brake, as I apply them, that causes that feeling.
I also find that Head and Eyes are the single most important thing, for me at least. The extra 3-4 ft gained from proper Head/Eye placement is the difference of making the turn or coming wide.
 
#36 ·
Some good stuff in here. As a new owner I'll admit I'm having trouble at slow speed and u-turns. As I live downtown in a big city I deal with both of these things on a daily basis and am doing my best. TBH I think part of it is I'm getting inside my own head and the mantra "don't drop this expensive bike" plays out over and over again. I have had a heavy bike but it was the C650GT which is best described as a step through motorcycle (calling it a scooter is a stretch) and CVT . I could turn it on a dime and slow speeds no issue at all but had no clutch to worry about. I'm pretty good at finding the friction zone on the K and so I'm not sure that is the issue. On the C650 I would ride the rear brake pretty hard and power through slow speeds maneuvers. I think maybe I'm not braking hard enough as I'm spending too much effort trying to control the friction zone? Should I open the clutch more and primarily use the throttle and brake to control the bike?

I have taken a number of advanced riding courses but not with something this size and a clutch. So I do know the basics of look where you want to go, countering, adjust weight to balance the bike etc... I'm curious though how riders new to the K1600's adjusted when stepping up to a bigger bike. I will take a course but the season is pretty much over here. I do ride through the winter in Toronto but will not be taking the BMW out on days where is might be iffy ice wise and will stick to the Vespa or Ural on those days.
 
#37 ·
Some good stuff in here. As a new owner I'll admit I'm having trouble at slow speed and u-turns. As I live downtown in a big city I deal with both of these things on a daily basis and am doing my best. TBH I think part of it is I'm getting inside my own head and the mantra "don't drop this expensive bike" plays out over and over again. I have had a heavy bike but it was the C650GT which is best described as a step through motorcycle (calling it a scooter is a stretch) and CVT . I could turn it on a dime and slow speeds no issue at all but had no clutch to worry about. I'm pretty good at finding the friction zone on the K and so I'm not sure that is the issue. On the C650 I would ride the rear brake pretty hard and power through slow speeds maneuvers. I think maybe I'm not braking hard enough as I'm spending too much effort trying to control the friction zone? Should I open the clutch more and primarily use the throttle and brake to control the bike?

I have taken a number of advanced riding courses but not with something this size and a clutch. So I do know the basics of look where you want to go, countering, adjust weight to balance the bike etc... I'm curious though how riders new to the K1600's adjusted when stepping up to a bigger bike. I will take a course but the season is pretty much over here. I do ride through the winter in Toronto but will not be taking the BMW out on days where is might be iffy ice wise and will stick to the Vespa or Ural on those days.
Go out there right now and knock it over on both sides... There. Scratched. Now you can stop worrying and have fun with the slow stuff. 🤣
 
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#40 ·
I periodically go back to school - especially when I need to tweak my slow speed skills. Today I ran a basic class hosted by FishTail in New Hampshire.

My takeaways are this:
1. As good as I think I am I suck.
2. The Grand (and I presume all of the K's) have a very short clutch throw and a very reactive throttle; even in Harley [rain] mode.

I have struggled to find the precise dance of clutch/throttle/rear brake on this bike, and I now know it is real by watching several others working their respective bikes. I found the short clutch made for some very interesting reactions and required a lot of concentration to manipulate. By this I mean the friction point becomes quickly engaged fully. I also felt the throttle reacted quickly. I went from 900 idle to 2500 RPMs with very little movement of my wrist; the net effect was I rev'd up a lot needlessly.

I found I had to leave the throttle closed and actually use my rear brake quite a bit to keep my speed down too with the clutch out.

All-in-all these are just characteristics of the platform and I need to become familiar with it for what it is. I can say that a slow speed course - especially an advanced one - is very challenging on this bike.

My freakin' forearms are on fire tonight. Clearly I need to practice more.
Ditto with the clutch and rear brake. Have just spent a week riding Passes in the Alps 2 up with lots of luggage. I found the best way and the safest way, for me at any rate is 2nd gear, leave the clutch fully engaged and use the rear brake to modulate speed at walking pace with a tiny bit of throttle, especially when negotiating 180o plus very tight turns keeping the bike virtually upright and the drivetrain engaged. Then as soon as all is clear power out of the turn. Takes a little practise but found it a repeatable and dependable option, the K has so much torque I found 2nd to be the best. 1st gear is too twitchy, smoothness is the key....IMHO.
 
#41 ·
In the form of true irony not half an hour after I posted I had to save the bike from going down for the first time . I was backing out the bike by duck walking it out of our spot and there was a pebble that I slipped on. I felt her going down and had to yank her back up. To be honest it wasn’t as bad as I thought for a bike it’s size. I was able to regain footing and yank hard in the other direction and she came back up. My fault for not checking my footing but it’s an indoor parking garage so I guess I got lazy. She probably would have been ok though as I back up with the side stand down just in case. Still good to know she’s balanced well and will come back up without getting a hernia.
 
#44 ·
At least you saved her. This bike doesn't usually allow mistakes. And if you really want irony, my first drop occurred when on a Thursday I had decided to buy rear Ilium crash bars at the MOA Rally on Saturday, but go riding Friday, and the drop of course occurred on Friday, a day before I'd have had them on the bike.

I have nearly, but not, had an accident from a rolling stick, pecan hull, etc., and now check the outside of any garage before I head backwards, standard duck walk or reverse-gear.

Also, at least on the GT, I find that there's a figurative ton of difference in the way the bike feels in terms of the center-of-gravity based whether the gas tank is at 2 or less gallons, versus 5-7 gallons full.

After a second drop where my brain processed a surface as flat, together with a transition from pavement to gravel, while turning at full left lock, only back brake on, but it was a slope, I've decided that as a mountain rider, the Motojitsu flat pavement stuff might help a little, but I'd really like to have a slow-turn course (using someone else's bikes 😁 ) where the parking and turning areas are varying in surface, transitioning from pavement to gravel and dirt, and uphill, downhill, and undulating.

I did do something stupid which caused the first drop, so I can make sure that one won't happen again, but I've still only dropped this bike, out of 20 or so I've owned over the years, and even then, I've never dropped it on flat ground. I can now park my GT by going down a steep hill at one of my offices, then making a full-lock right turn on a slope, to face the garage entrance, BUT to be comfortable doing it, I had to spend a lot of time and practice.. It's always been a mystery to me why the slow-handling courses operate on the assumption that the real world only requires incredible slow speed riding on flat pavement.
 
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#42 ·
I was out riding one day and when it came to doing 90 degree corners I could negotiate them at 25 - 30 MPH, no problem. So why was I having problems making u-turns ? Duh ......... I'm going too **** slow !!!!!!
The biggest problem I had with slow speed maneuvers when I switched to the K bike was.......... I had to realize you don't have to be doing slow speeds to do a 18 foot circle. I went out to a wide open parking lot and started doing about 25 foot circles which is where I was comfortable about 10 MPH. I realized you can set the CC at any speed so I set it at 10 MPH and slowly bumped it up as I bumped it up I could decrease the radius somewhere around 15 - 16 MPH I was doing full lock 16 foot circles and could just about let go of the handlebars. No need for playing with the clutch or the rear brake. The other thing about the K bike is, it'll idle along on it's own in 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th so you can also pick a gear which your comfortable with for speed to do tight slow speed maneuvers. Once you realize that the K bike has a huge lean angle and can utilize it at slow speeds making u-turns are a breeze. And to get out of the tight turn you simply bump the throttle and drive out of it as you would with any other corner.
 
#43 ·
Thanks for the cc tip, that’s a good one! I’m going to hit a parking lot this week and try it.

next week we’re going to a cottage with a long gravel and dirt driveway. Usually I bring the Ural but because of business think I might need to run back to TO at least once. It’s a 5 hour ride on the Ural but on the K1600GT I’m sure I can do it in under 4 as I can pass slower traffic like trucks. Most of the ride is a 2 lane highway. You aren’t passing anything on a Ural.

any tips for handling the driveway? Rain mode? What luggage setting is best?
 
#49 ·
The biggest problem I had with a stock K was the shortness of range within the clutch throw; it was almost binary. I fixed this with the Bren tune.
I did find (and do agree) that with the bike in 2nd, and the clutch fully disengaged, using only the rear brake as a feathering, I can roll lock-to-lock in a decent parking lot.
 
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#50 ·
Huh.. I've always feathered and used the rear brake in 1st gear at slow speed but will try second gear as yeah that would affect the clutch. The more I ride her the better I am getting with riding the rear brake in slow traffic with the clutch not engaged. It takes a while to get the feel of a new bike and figure out the tolerances such as how much throttle it needs before pulling in the clutch. It does downshift well though and I find rev matching very easy on this bike.
 
#53 ·
Perhaps the '18 is the same have not really tried it that slow yet. I recall specifically it being 19 mph on the '12 becuase one of the first "tests" I made was an attempt to go from 0 mph to 80 mph on the Interstate without touching the throttle (simulating an injury to my throttle arm). Ease it into 1st at idle then (without shift-assist) work my way through the gears to 6th. At that point it was going fast enough to engage the cruise control
 
#56 ·
Sorry - OT rant below and I was OK with my slow speed technique on the K but need to hit a parking lot today to practice. The merge was a little unsettling yesterday and this type of slow speed riding is a little different than say a u-turn as you have the added pressure of cars rolling to the side and behind you and getting rear ended if you have to go feet down is a possibility.

Going from 30 minutes of 130 kmh to a merge on another "expressway"in a sweeping turn at less than abut 5-10 kmh with no room to merge kinda sucks. I'm still new to the bike and will get better but I hate that moment when you have to ride the rear brake and wiggle the bars and finally say screw it and put your feet down to wait. Finally I said screwed it and gunned it through the no go triangle zone and slipped in. Even when merged we were still going really, really slow.

Of course it was because some 3 km's down the road there was a fender bender. No lanes blocked but people are people and have to look... Anyone from TO will know The 404 South to Don Valley Parkway merge can suck even on a Saturday afternoon.
 
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