BMW K1600 Forum banner

21 - 40 of 51 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
181 Posts
Oh Man...that's brutal. Hopefully its aligned and just a boot for a few weeks. The rib doesn't feel good though. How is the bike?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
411 Posts
Now the really bad news. The roads were dry today, so I took the bike to my sons place about 20 km away for winter storage. Everything was fine until a small hill just before his place where some snow had drifted across the road. Stupid me thought I could ride through it - WRONG. down I went. Felt like I twisted my ankle, but otherwise ok. A person stopped to help and we got the bike up and pushed onto bare pavement. Road the bike a few hundred yards to the garage and we pushed it on his snow covered driveway into the garage. Went to hospital next. Broken fibula and cracked rib!! Pretty sure the bike fell on my ankle as I went down. Now have an air cast until I se the orthopaedic surgeon next week.
A really really stupid 75 year old geezer who should have taken a moment to consider the potential safety risks!
Jim
Ugh...that sucks! Heal well!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
113 Posts
Discussion Starter #23
Oh Man...that's brutal. Hopefully its aligned and just a boot for a few weeks. The rib doesn't feel good though. How is the bike?
Rib not too sore right now, so must be a small fracture.
First thing I did when I git my bike was to install engine crash bars and crash bars in front of the side cases. Only damage I noticed is slightly bent shifter. Without crash bars, there would have been significant damage $$$$$. Although I wasnt going very fast, It went down fast and hard.
Jim
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
520 Posts
This is exactly what my bike is doing. takes about 5 start attempts before it finally runs. I've reset the adaptations (learning settings), throttle body and twist grip settings with the GS-911 as suggested by Mole999. Probably tomorrow I'll try a cold start as it is right around the freezing mark now (and snowing!!). If it doesn't start on first attempt, I'll try pulling the clutch lever in. (doing that will take some load off the starter because some of the tranny gears would not be rotating)
Jim
Pulling in the clutch level or having the transmission in neutral both set the same condition making the engine ready to fire. Consider you may have dirty injectors. When you finish riding the injector leaks down into the cylinder until pressure is releived. Next time you try to start, you're starting a bike with a flooded cylinder(s). Hold the throttle wide open and try to start the bike. If it fires right up you have dirty injectors bleeding down into the cylinders. Techron is your friend try it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
384 Posts
@Sodbuster, when I got my FJR years back, the dealer's head mechanic who at that time was working on bikes for like 35 years and was a trainer for Yamaha, told me to never start the bike every so often in the winter months UNLESS you are planning to ride it for like 3 - 5 miles after it is warmed up. It is cancer to any bike !!!!!. Fill with fresh, high octane fuel close to the top tube, 3 oz of winterizer/Stab per 5 gal and one bottle of injector cleaner, run it for 3 mins and shut her down, wheels off the floor, trickle charge 24/7 and forget about her until your ride again. Many guys start the bikes when they feel like it in the winter months and it is not healthy.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,453 Posts
Tried to start after doing all the resets. Temp was 1.5 C. Would not start on 1st attempt. 2nd try was with clutch pulled in and throttle open a bit. Would not even fire. Then tried with clutch pulled and throttle at rest, no start. Tried about 5 more times with clutch pulled before it would run.
Sure seems like insufficient cold start enrichment.

Now the really bad news. The roads were dry today, so I took the bike to my sons place about 20 km away for winter storage. Everything was fine until a small hill just before his place where some snow had drifted across the road. Stupid me thought I could ride through it - WRONG. down I went. Felt like I twisted my ankle, but otherwise ok. A person stopped to help and we got the bike up and pushed onto bare pavement. Road the bike a few hundred yards to the garage and we pushed it on his snow covered driveway into the garage. Went to hospital next. Broken fibula and cracked rib!! Pretty sure the bike fell on my ankle as I went down. Now have an air cast until I se the orthopaedic surgeon next week.
A really really stupid 75 year old geezer who should have taken a moment to consider the potential safety risks!
Jim
Really sorry to hear about the accident. I put the bike away before Halloween, weather gets so variable once November hits that it just isn't worth the risk anymore. Good to hear you are at least ambulatory and good luck with the healing. Now.. how to pass the time until spring!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,453 Posts
Pulling in the clutch level or having the transmission in neutral both set the same condition making the engine ready to fire. Consider you may have dirty injectors. When you finish riding the injector leaks down into the cylinder until pressure is releived. Next time you try to start, you're starting a bike with a flooded cylinder(s). Hold the throttle wide open and try to start the bike. If it fires right up you have dirty injectors bleeding down into the cylinders. Techron is your friend try it.
Does this work on an injected and fly by wire bike? It worked on bikes with a carb or where there is a cable to control opening because you are opening the throttle body and initially you have more air than fuel coming in due to the fact that the engine isn't running (leaning out the mixture until the engine catches). On a fly by wire bike I would suspect that the throttle body is controlled by the fuel air map in the ECU and in response to what the O2 or other sensor is required for the right mixture. Opening the throttle wide open shouldn't do anything until the ECU decides it needs to. I am genuinely curious btw but it makes sense that the throttle body in the bike is disconnected from the throttle by the ECU, maybe someone with experience could chime in.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
259 Posts
Does this work on an injected and fly by wire bike? It worked on bikes with a carb or where there is a cable to control opening because you are opening the throttle body and initially you have more air than fuel coming in due to the fact that the engine isn't running (leaning out the mixture until the engine catches). On a fly by wire bike I would suspect that the throttle body is controlled by the fuel air map in the ECU and in response to what the O2 or other sensor is required for the right mixture. Opening the throttle wide open shouldn't do anything until the ECU decides it needs to. I am genuinely curious btw but it makes sense that the throttle body in the bike is disconnected from the throttle by the ECU, maybe someone with experience could chime in.
don't worry about if the throttle is cable controlled or fly-by-wire. Either way, the ECU is programmed to recognize a WOT when the key is on, but engine off. I'm slightly rusty, but it might look at air temperature, but one can have a flooded engine in the hot or cold, so air temp. shouldn't matter too much. The ECU, seeing a WOT, will not apply any voltage to the injectors (or very little) to keep them from operating. It shouldn't be operating the fuel pump either, because it looks for oil pressure by reading the oil pressure sensor's voltage. Therefor, the fuel rail should be empty doing this procedure, as well. The ECU will go ahead and fire the spark plugs via the ignition coils, and the engine will crank while the start button is depressed, and the trottle body valve(s) should be fully opened. Once there is sufficient oil pressure, indicating a running engine, the fuel pump relay will energize, the fuel pump will push fuel to fill the rail, and the ECU will receive information from the camshaft and crankshaft sensors to adj. ignition timing, and adj. the air/fuel mixture by applying whatever voltage is needed to the injectors. Typically, once the engine starts, the operator lets off either the gas pedal in a car or the throttle for a motorcycle, and the ECU makes the necessary adjustments to keep the engine going, dependent upon how warm or cold the engine is (by getting info. from the coolant sensor) and the air intake/temp sensor. If the engine is cold, the ECU will stay in what is known as "open loop", feeding voltage to the injectors by amounts programmed into tables/matrices stored in the ECU. During this time, it ignores the information from the oxygen sensors. Once the engine is warmed enough, then the ECU goes into "closed loop" and it starts taking into consideration the oxygen sensor(s)' information, adjusting the amount of fuel as necessary. That is how a gasoline powered ICE works on a car. I am pretty sure it works the same on a motorcycle (with gasoline ICE).

BTW, on vehicles with throttle cables, the ECU was informed how much the gas pedal was depressed by reading the thottle blade angle, which was provided by a potentiometer-like device bolted to the end of the throttle body and the protruding shaft that the blades attach to. On vehicles with "fly-by-wire", they've simply relocated the potentiometer to the gas pedal, and I would assume in/at the throttle grip. Where I'm rusty is I don't know how the throttle valves/blades are operated/controlled, but I would assume with some kind of electro-mechanical actuator. The potentiometer at the pedal/throttle grip is the operator's input to tell the ECU how much power/how fast he wants to go. This is why they instruct the operators never to pump the gas pedal (or even depress it partially) in a car while trying to start it/prior to starting it because you'll just confuse the ECU and it will really become difficult to start the engine.


Hope this helps.


Jeff
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
520 Posts
Does this work on an injected and fly by wire bike? It worked on bikes with a carb or where there is a cable to control opening because you are opening the throttle body and initially you have more air than fuel coming in due to the fact that the engine isn't running (leaning out the mixture until the engine catches). On a fly by wire bike I would suspect that the throttle body is controlled by the fuel air map in the ECU and in response to what the O2 or other sensor is required for the right mixture. Opening the throttle wide open shouldn't do anything until the ECU decides it needs to. I am genuinely curious btw but it makes sense that the throttle body in the bike is disconnected from the throttle by the ECU, maybe someone with experience could chime in.
That makes sense, but I thought by opening the throttle you send a signal to the ECU to open the throttle, so cable or not the result should be the same. I don't think the ECU actually controls the throttle, the rider controls the throttle body all be it by wire. The way the ECU sets mixture is via a feedback loop established by 02 sensor readings. I'm thinking it's trying to maintain somewhere about 13.5 :1 fuel/air ratio, which is on the lean side. It adjusts the injectors flow rate based on riders throttle demands. Opening the throttle should allow an overly rich or wet cylinder to fire, at least that's my thoughts.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,453 Posts
don't worry about if the throttle is cable controlled or fly-by-wire. Either way, the ECU is programmed to recognize a WOT when the key is on, but engine off. I'm slightly rusty, but it might look at air temperature, but one can have a flooded engine in the hot or cold, so air temp. shouldn't matter too much. The ECU, seeing a WOT, will not apply any voltage to the injectors (or very little) to keep them from operating. It shouldn't be operating the fuel pump either, because it looks for oil pressure by reading the oil pressure sensor's voltage. Therefor, the fuel rail should be empty doing this procedure, as well. The ECU will go ahead and fire the spark plugs via the ignition coils, and the engine will crank while the start button is depressed, and the trottle body valve(s) should be fully opened. Once there is sufficient oil pressure, indicating a running engine, the fuel pump relay will energize, the fuel pump will push fuel to fill the rail, and the ECU will receive information from the camshaft and crankshaft sensors to adj. ignition timing, and adj. the air/fuel mixture by applying whatever voltage is needed to the injectors. Typically, once the engine starts, the operator lets off either the gas pedal in a car or the throttle for a motorcycle, and the ECU makes the necessary adjustments to keep the engine going, dependent upon how warm or cold the engine is (by getting info. from the coolant sensor) and the air intake/temp sensor. If the engine is cold, the ECU will stay in what is known as "open loop", feeding voltage to the injectors by amounts programmed into tables/matrices stored in the ECU. During this time, it ignores the information from the oxygen sensors. Once the engine is warmed enough, then the ECU goes into "closed loop" and it starts taking into consideration the oxygen sensor(s)' information, adjusting the amount of fuel as necessary. That is how a gasoline powered ICE works on a car. I am pretty sure it works the same on a motorcycle (with gasoline ICE).

BTW, on vehicles with throttle cables, the ECU was informed how much the gas pedal was depressed by reading the thottle blade angle, which was provided by a potentiometer-like device bolted to the end of the throttle body and the protruding shaft that the blades attach to. On vehicles with "fly-by-wire", they've simply relocated the potentiometer to the gas pedal, and I would assume in/at the throttle grip. Where I'm rusty is I don't know how the throttle valves/blades are operated/controlled, but I would assume with some kind of electro-mechanical actuator. The potentiometer at the pedal/throttle grip is the operator's input to tell the ECU how much power/how fast he wants to go. This is why they instruct the operators never to pump the gas pedal (or even depress it partially) in a car while trying to start it/prior to starting it because you'll just confuse the ECU and it will really become difficult to start the engine.


Hope this helps.


Jeff
That makes sense if there is an explicit override for the flooded state (in start mode with WOT request ) and the computer ignores (temporarily) throttle position but that seems like a pretty brute force method for getting past that flooded state. The engine sensor will see saturated exhaust (high fuel to air) and could simply open the throttle itself. But, I guess the go with what people are trained to do effect kicks in and we end up with this solution. make sense and thanks for the explanation!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,453 Posts
That makes sense, but I thought by opening the throttle you send a signal to the ECU to open the throttle, so cable or not the result should be the same. I don't think the ECU actually controls the throttle, the rider controls the throttle body all be it by wire. The way the ECU sets mixture is via a feedback loop established by 02 sensor readings. I'm thinking it's trying to maintain somewhere about 13.5 :1 fuel/air ratio, which is on the lean side. It adjusts the injectors flow rate based on riders throttle demands. Opening the throttle should allow an overly rich or wet cylinder to fire, at least that's my thoughts.
I do believe that the ECU controls the throttle body otherwise the ECU would only control fuel delivery and that would be a mess. I think it does have to do so, at least that makes sense to me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
113 Posts
Discussion Starter #32
Really sorry to hear about the accident. I put the bike away before Halloween, weather gets so variable once November hits that it just isn't worth the risk anymore. Good to hear you are at least ambulatory and good luck with the healing. Now.. how to pass the time until spring!
Thanks
Typical leadup to an accident
Busy all fall with bodywork on a 69 Barracuda I’m restoring. Then trip with my son to a Mopar reunion in Alabama. Work around home etc. The days roll by, weather gets worse. Then a good day with dry roads but snow coming in later in the day. Perceived need to rush overrides cold safety assessment of risks.
Going to be a long few weeks with little to do especially when I’m always busy doing something!
Anyway, could have been a lot worse, so all is good
Jim
Kincardine, ON
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
113 Posts
Discussion Starter #33
The throttle valve is definitely controlled by the ECU (BMS-X) via a servo motor. From the BMW tech manual:


The function of the idle speed control and cold starting is accommodated via the electronically controlled throttle valve unit. When the engine is cold, the engine control raises
the idle speed. When the engine temperature increases, this speed value is reduced to the idle speed and the throttle valve is repositioned by a servomotor via a control loop.
A central throttle valve with a diameter of 52 mm is activated with an electric servomotor rather than
a Bowden cable, hence it is referred to as E-gas or Ride-by-Wire. The BMS-X is responsible for ope- ning and closing the throttle valve by switching the polarity on the servomotor itself. A throttle position sensor, which is comprised of two sensors providing two input signals records the position
of the throttle valve shaft and passes the informa- tion on to the engine control unit (BMS -X). These two input signals provide the same information
to the BMS-X, however they function completely independent of each other and the two signals are direct opposites of each other. If a fault occurs (i.e. sensor failure) the BMS - X will revert to a "limp" mode which raises the idle speed to approximately 2,000 rpm to allow the rider to get off the road.
The "wish" of the rider is passed directly from the sensor on the throttle twist-grip to the BMS-X engine control unit. This sensor is also made up
of two signal inputs, however the signals work in the same direction with two rising characteristic curves. The input signal from the throttle twist- girp sensor is received as a torque request by the engine control unit. An electrical servomotor then moves the throttle valve into the required positi-
on. The use of an E-gas system, over a traditional cable operated throttle has numerous benefits, such as the ability to offer various driving modes, electronic cruise control, dynamic traction contol and enables optimal driveability with very efficient fuel consumption.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,186 Posts
Tried to start after doing all the resets. Temp was 1.5 C. Would not start on 1st attempt. 2nd try was with clutch pulled in and throttle open a bit. Would not even fire. Then tried with clutch pulled and throttle at rest, no start. Tried about 5 more times with clutch pulled before it would run.
Sure seems like insufficient cold start enrichment.
Jim
Hmm. The mothership said that I was not doing the cold start correctly because I didn't have the clutch lever pulled in. I was hoping to hear that the issue would be fixed by pulling the clutch lever.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,186 Posts
Got a cold"ish" morning today. Tested starting the bike with the clutch lever pulled in and throttle slightly open as specified in the user manual.

Didn't make any difference. Still took 5 start attempts for the engine to catch and then about 20 seconds of very rough running until it stabilized and ran.

So, I don't think my cold start problem is related to the ECU or injection timing. I'm starting to think the fuel rail has an air leak somehow.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,776 Posts
Clutch in in theory removes the additional pressure of the wet multiple churning in very thick oil, how thick is that oil !!!!. 5 or 0 weight if i remember correctly
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,776 Posts
Got a cold"ish" morning today. Tested starting the bike with the clutch lever pulled in and throttle slightly open as specified in the user manual.

Didn't make any difference. Still took 5 start attempts for the engine to catch and then about 20 seconds of very rough running until it stabilized and ran.

So, I don't think my cold start problem is related to the ECU or injection timing. I'm starting to think the fuel rail has an air leak somehow.

How about doing the non intuitive, press and hold the starter until it fires and runs, the starter should auto cut out over running speed. Not heard of anyone pressing the starter with the engine running and getting a bendix drive thrown in causing a nasty noise. five attempts is saying its intuitive to release when we guess its caught
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
367 Posts
I had the same problem recently. I tried measuring the voltage of the battery during start. It dropped into the 8V range while cranking - perhaps not enough for the ignition system. I replaced the battery (almost 4 years old), and the problem has not recurred in the last dozen or so cold weather starts.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
113 Posts
Discussion Starter #39
How about doing the non intuitive, press and hold the starter until it fires and runs, the starter should auto cut out over running speed. Not heard of anyone pressing the starter with the engine running and getting a bendix drive thrown in causing a nasty noise. five attempts is saying its intuitive to release when we guess its caught
I tried that as well. The engine fires, stalls and if you keep cranking, it does not fire at all
Jim
 
21 - 40 of 51 Posts
Top