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When the elections are fair and honest and true, sure.

Trump lost the popular vote, as did Bush before him. That quite literally does not reflect the will of the people...
It's the electoral college that MAKES us a Republic. Without it we'd be a Democracy. The greatest thing our founding father's did was create the electoral college ensuring everyone from every walk of life and in every state had a voice. If you don't agree with that you're an idiot.

Duane
 

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Darbinco—let me just say that I am almost completely opposite of everything you'd said here.

Seriously—I can't even be bothered too try and refute any of it, because it's so far-fetched as to be completely unbelievable.

Unless you're basing everything solely on Faux News, that is...
 

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Whatever you think about our President, you must admit that he stirred a pot that needed some serious mixing.
Trump isn't draining the swap—he is the swamp...

Mueller’s team indicted or got guilty pleas from 34 people and three companies, including six former Trump advisers, five which have plead guilty.

Yes, our system has always been littered with corruption, but they have never been this brazen, or this obvious...
 

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The greatest thing our founding father's did was create the electoral college ensuring everyone from every walk of life and in every state had a voice.
And that some people get 3/5ths of a voice...

The Electoral College doesn't need to be abolished, but it does need to be updated to reflect current population trends.

There's reason one branch of Congress is based on the number of states, and one is based on population numbers...
 

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I believe his motivation for high office is equally noble.
And I disagree, full stop.

Trump only cares about Trump—period. There is nothing noble about him at all, which can be blatantly seen going back decades now...

If you wanna talk tax dollars, why is it that predominately blue states have higher GDPs and contribute more to the Federal tax fund, and predominately red states take more federal aid than they pay in taxes? Just where do you think all this federal welfare money is going?

I can accept an abrasive, crude, bombastic man
I can't. Not as the prime representative of our entire country. Every time he opens his mouth or types a tweet he makes America a laughingstock...

has his own country's best interests at heart.
But clearly, he doesn't. And never has.

I agree that the Constitution is a large part of what makes America great. Which is why I'm horrified to see Trump and company constantly shïtting on it...
 

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And that some people get 3/5ths of a voice...

The Electoral College doesn't need to be abolished, but it does need to be updated to reflect current population trends.

There's reason one branch of Congress is based on the number of states, and one is based on population numbers...
And I'm sure you 'think' the 2nd Amendment needs to be "updated" along with the 1st and probably others. Another shocker coming from you... Typical left winger, you 'say' one thing, e.g. I support the Constitution, but what you're really saying is we need to change it to reflect the opinions of liberals and the conservatives be dammed...

Duane
 

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No, we need to make sure these things reflect every American.

Big difference there...

To be honest, I'd be happy if they simply enforced the Emoluments Clause of the Constitution...
 

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@Meese, sure you believe that, as long as if reflects 'your' opinion. The framers of our Constitution wrote it to protect the rest of us from constituents like you.

Please don't stop with your responses, this is more fun than watching MSNBC on election night! :)

Duane
 

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I no longer need to respond, as you keep on putting words into my mouth, and thus you seem to be having both sides of the debate all by yourself...

I'm not your enemy Duane.

I simply disagree with your political views, with your accepted "facts", and thus with your conclusions.

But isn't it great that you and I and everyone else including actors, politicians, lawyers, athletes, businesspeople, homemakers, and every other American can have such a heated disagreement, and yet are still both free to state our sides openly and publicly?

I'm sure you can agree that is a large part of what makes America great...
 

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Congratulations to the US women's soccer team for winning their second straight World Cup title, and to Megan Rapinoe and Rose Lavelle for scoring the winning goals!

Isn't it great when we can all agree and just get along?

 

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Darbinco—let me just say that I am almost completely opposite of everything you'd said here.

Seriously—I can't even be bothered too try and refute any of it, because it's so far-fetched as to be completely unbelievable.

Unless you're basing everything solely on Faux News, that is...
You know... faced with having to defend the actions of the democrat party.. I'd probably use the same cop out.


But isn't it great that you and I and everyone else including actors, politicians, lawyers, athletes, businesspeople, homemakers, and every other American can have such a heated disagreement, and yet are still both free to state our sides openly and publicly?

I'm sure you can agree that is a large part of what makes America great...
In this medium maybe but try being a conservative student, speaker or a professor at UC Berkeley (or any number of "higher education" universities in this country) or at a conservative rally in Portland and tell me again how nice it is that we all can voice our opinions openly and publicly without the threat of violence?
 

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When the elections are fair and honest and true, sure.

Trump lost the popular vote, as did Bush before him. That quite literally does not reflect the will of the people...

The electoral system exists for very good reason--to protect the minority from the majority. The constitution, and the United States of America, would not exist without it. The smaller states would never have ratified it.

If we did the election merely by popular vote, what would happen?

The only states that would matter would be the population centers. The vast majority of states and all of the people in them would no longer matter. This would essentially lead to discontent and revolution as the population centers essentially became dictators to the now unrepresented. The smaller states in the time of the founders saw that, and would not have ratified the constitution without the electoral system, for that reason.

The same reasons exist today. An amendment to the constitution must be ratified by 3/4 of the states in order to become part of the constitution. The very states that would be reduced in power by elimination of the electoral system, would have to ratify the amendment eliminating it. Highly improbable.

Another example is The Bill of Rights. The Bill of Rights is unnecessary to protect the majority in a democracy--majority rule can carry the day. The Bill of Rights exist to protect the minority viewpoints, from majority rule.

Another is the existence of a House of Representatives, which is weighted by population, and the Senate which is not.

There are brilliant cross-checks and balances built into our government. I wish we were providing our students with better education, knowledge, and understanding of the logic and wisdom of the constitution.
 

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We are descending into the specifics and failing to keep our eyes on common ground and common goals.

We the people, want America to be great. We want an America that is more just, more righteous, more ethical, more liberating, more free, more wealthy. We just disagree on how best to do that.

If we descend into calling each other names and lining up with parties and ideologies, we will continue on a path that leads to becoming a has-been, once great power for human freedom.

I have wanted to "like" a number of the statements on both sides in this discussion, about half-way through each. Until I saw all the backloaded name-calling, finger-pointing and crap that came with the good points presented. Why must we do that to each other? Why can we not have a logical discussion on the points.

The answer is, we can, else hope is lost. Those who can, and do, will lead us back out of this mess.
 

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@Meese I will have your back if we ever ride together but I am afraid I do not agree with almost everything that you have posted in this thread and that is OK as I have friends that feel the same way that you do - just not very many of them.0:) I am one of those people that believe in less government and that government is not the answer or solution to most problems. We have more government interference in our lives than at any point in our history and it continues to get worse. I have always wondered why folks on the left hate and distrust the police so much yet they fail to consider that the police are just an extension of the government that they want more of.............

Oh and by the way, prior to 2016 no one really knew if Trump was going to be left or right. So far, he has adopted conservative practices but many of us wondered which way he was going to lean. I often wonder if he had turned out to be left leaning what the left would be saying about him today, if anything.

He's not your man and I get that but I think he is having a lot of fun making so many of you upset because he also knows that he is not your man and he doesn't care.
 

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I no longer need to respond, as you keep on putting words into my mouth...
It's not others putting words in your mouth that is the problem. It's your own words. You've done the damage all by yourself.

Please keep your promise, and don't write messages about subjects above your pay grade. You are making yourself look foolish.

Whatever one thinks of our Commander-in-Chief, standing behind and for the United States of America is not predicated on the occupant of the office of President of the United States of America. Loyalty, by definition, is an allegiance to something, and in this case that something happens to be the greatest country in the history of the world.

I do not salute our flag or sing the National Anthem because Mr. Donald J. Trump is our President, but for this country, the vision and ideals upon which it was founded, the brave individuals who have defended it across the centuries, and its continued prosperity.

If we suffer from anything, it is a lack of critical thinking, knowledge of world history, and an ability to honor anything more than or small minds and parochial ideas.

May God bless this remarkable country, and may He bless our President.
 

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Whatever one thinks of our Commander-in-Chief, standing behind and for the United States of America is not predicated on the occupant of the office of President of the United States of America. Loyalty, by definition, is an allegiance to something, and in this case that something happens to be the greatest country in the history of the world.

In the late 1700s, could not something similar have been said? Suppose for a moment: "Whatever one thinks of our King, standing behind and for the British Empire is not predicated on The King. Loyalty, by definition, is an allegiance to something, and in this case that something happens to be the greatest country in the history of the world."

Is this not what a loyalist would have said, to the contrary of a revolutionist? Would your thinking have made you a loyalist or a revolutionary? I am not trying to accuse you of anything, I am trying to get you to consider an alternative perspective to your position. A perspective with which you may agree or disagree, but one I hope you will recognize as not as black and white in the moment as it seems in the hindsight of history.


“Blind belief in authority is the greatest enemy of truth.”
-- Albert Einstein (fairly smart guy, who was faced with his own choice about loyalty)


"I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccesful rebellions indeed generally establish the incroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions, as not to discourage them too much. It is a medecine necessary for the sound health of government."
-- Thomas Jefferson


I would venture to guess both you and the subject of your discontent, would agree that we can be better than we are. And that you both desire this country to be better than we currently are. Let us focus on figuring out how we not only stay "the greatest country in the history of the world", but continue to become greater. Let us not fall to being another "was the greatest" because we chose to bicker about loyalty vs. disloyalty. "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union . . . " -- as true today as it was when written. Let us work together, rationally and logically, on making this a better country. Let us lead, not be led.
 

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In the late 1700s, could not something similar have been said? Suppose for a moment: "Whatever one thinks of our King, standing behind and for the British Empire is not predicated on The King. Loyalty, by definition, is an allegiance to something, and in this case that something happens to be the greatest country in the history of the world."
And so what? The United States IS the greatest country in the history of the world TODAY.

The set of principles and documents which established the United States of America and govern it are the foundation of its greatness, and that greatness is demonstrable. It’s continued greatness is directly related to the faithful adherence to the founding documents. When those documents are reinterpreted and disfigured, the United States of America suffers diminution.

Whether a subject of the English monarch would have claimed that England, Great Britain or the British Empire, Commonwealth of Nations, or whatever period we are speaking about, would have thought that their country was the greatest in the world is totally immaterial. Or are you a proponent of relativism?
 

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@phat6 , you're trying to make the reach/connection between American revolutionaries rebelling against the British and a flag burner today. Surely yea jest...

Duane
 

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The United States IS the greatest country in the history of the world TODAY.

The set of principles and documents which established the United States of America and govern it are the foundation of its greatness, and that greatness is demonstrable. It’s continued greatness is directly related to the faithful adherence to the founding documents. When those documents are reinterpreted and disfigured, the United States of America suffers diminution.

@phat6 , you're trying to make the reach/connection between American revolutionaries rebelling against the British and a flag burner today.

My point is that both sides thought they were right at the time. Both sides were "loyal" to different things. The attitude of the loyalists, towards the revolutionaries, prior to the successful revolution, was different than the attitude years, decades, or centuries later. In history we can see both the past attitudes, and the present. Regarding the issues of today, we only see the present (which in history will become the past) attitudes, and do not see the future (which in history will become the present) attitudes. For example: at the time of the civil rights movement, do you think the people fighting against people having equal rights, thought they were fighting for doing injustice? Or, at the moment, did they think they were right, and only later as the population acquired greater wisdom, did they realize they might have been wrong? They were "loyal" to the existing state and rule of law that existed at the time. That loyalty did not make them right.

Loyalty is not necessarily correlated with justice / what is right. Loyatly is not a logical argument for what is just. Einstein stated it more eloquently.

The "set of principles and documents which established the United States of America and govern it are the foundation of its greatness" allowed for slavery, the denial of the right to vote for women, the banning of the sale and consumption of alcohol, etc at points in time. People "loyal" to the documents at the time, did not think they were being unjust by being loyal. Recognize I am also NOT saying that being loyal to the document is wrong. I am only saying that loyalty is not a logical argument for what is right / what is just.

Does that make it more clear, or have I made it more confusing?













An ancillary distinction / not part of the main point:

I stated protest is the equivalent of political whining. Flag burning is essentially a form of protest.

Revolution/rebellion is action.

So, I do not see your synopsis as an accurate reflection of my point in this regard, either.
 
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