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Discussion Starter #41
Pray tell us, was this the piston crown failing primarily, maybe due to poor fuel or pre-ignition, or are we now looking at a ringlands issue on a 2018 bike.

Can you get us some pics of the failed piston & scored bore please avfiat.

Like others, I am curious about the 2 year warranty issue - you need to talk to US HQ Customer Services direct if your dealer is 'ducking & diving' for any reason. Have you raised this with the Dealer Principal?

I've owned the bike since new with .3 miles on the odometer. I've had the bike for 18 months and killed off the warranty with 40K in 17. The motor has never seen anything but Chevron/Mobil/Shell 93 octane fuel and I've never heard it ping under acceleration. While I was on the phone with the BMW dealer I asked about the piston ring gap orientation As I expected he said he wasn't sure. I'm curious about this because the motor has always used oil about 1 qt per 6K. Proper ring orientation is huge on a motor that sits at a 45 degree angle in the frame and revs to 8.5K. Mine never saw that number I could feel it nosing over at 7K so I always shifted at 7K even with the Bren stage 2 map in it.



On the 26th I am going to the BMW dealer and taking a hard look at the pistons and cylinders and taking pictures.



I ended up with a 1 year extended warranty because when I went to buy a 2019 GT I couldn't because of the stop sale and at that point in time I had 35,800 on the clock so I bought the extended warranty from BMW to CMA while I waited for the stop sale to end.



More to come ............ Merry Christmas ALL
 

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Help me with the piston ring orientation on a 4 stroke engine. I understand the need to stage the ring gaps correctly on installation of the pistons to minimize blow by during the first few miles of engine operation. Back in my Harley days, we had a staging pattern that we strictly used for every engine that we put together. When we disassembled the engine later in their lives we never found the ring gaps in the originally set orientation which shows that the rings rotate at least in Harley big bore engines.
 

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The ring gaps are normally installed 180 degrees out of phase as the engine works the rings normally rotate, but should rotate at the same rates so in theory they never align, that's if all is well in a healthy engine. That's in all engines, not just Harley's
 

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Discussion Starter #47
So I go to the BMW dealer today and look at the damage. #5 piston has a broken ring land between the two compression rings about an inch long aligned with the wrist pin hole. The #5 cylinder bore has a about an inch wide swath the length of the stroke in the same location where the nikasil coating has been wiped off. The tops of all 6 pistons looked unremarkable and showed absolutely no sign of pre ignition so that wasn't the culprit. The top compression ring looked like it just came out of the package where as the bottom compression ring a bit beat up and the ends of the ring were very shiny like they had been rubbing together. So I'd have to say on a guess the ring gap wasn't big enough on the bottom compression ring and in that micro second of seizure broke the ring land which allowed the ring to release and over lap itself and start pumping oil. The repair tech seems to agree with me on this conclusion.



Now we get to the fun part. RPMONE is the extended warranty provider and they're telling me that they will only fix this problem with parts supplied by BMW. She also tells me that one of their inspectors has to look at the damage and assess what should be done. Then she tells me the inspector can't reach the BMW tech to setup an appointment to see the damage meanwhile the BMW tech was on the phone with the inspection guy while I was outside at the dealer having a cig. I also gave the warranty provider the option of replacing the engine with a used motor and the result of that was "we can't do that". See where this is going yet. OK so I'm supposed to wait months for these parts which don't exist at the present time to be shipped to the BMW dealer so they can fix the bike. Not in this life time. A 2018 K1600B/GA complete engine and tranny with 1800 miles on it is available on ebay for $2300, guess who bought it. And no that's not a $25 question. I called the BMW tech and told him the engine will be delivered to his door on the 2nd of January and that I'd be there on the 4th with a blank check and my riding gear to take the repaired bike home.


This going to get very interesting because I have a lawyer in my pocket who I've been friends with for over 20 years, and is also a riding buddy, who is a virtual pit bull that doesn't let go and just loves dealing with people that don't hold up their end of a business deal.



All you old time machinists will appreciate this: Like I always told my boss, "The hard things we do right away the impossible takes a tad longer". And then there's my all time favorite axiom" "If you need to achieve the impossible all it takes is money".


So hang tight folks I'm sure they'll be more to come .....................................
 

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The warranty company requiring an inspection and BMW supplied parts seems reasonable to me. The part about them not being able to get a hold of the tech is BS, but I'm confident that would have worked out.


Sounds like you are gearing up to sue the warranty company for the cost of the replacement engine & install. I wish you the best of luck, but I don't think that's a slam dunk win.


Zach
 

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As luck would have it I was going to a BMW dealer with a friend of mine to have his first service done on his new r1250rt. Last weekend I did a little vigorous riding through some twisties keeping the bike at about 6-7k shifting between 3rd and 4th for about 8 miles. When the HD guys finally caught up with me they informed me I was pushing a little blue smoke out my left exhaust pipe. Well today as I was traveling to the dealer my bike turned into a full blown mosquito fogger as I came off the highway to a stop at the end of an exit. Thankfully the dealer was about a mile down the road from there. In any case has anyone had problems with the head gasket on a K1600 model as I have 40K on my bike. The dealer hasn't torn into it as of yet but it's about the only thing I can think of as the motor was still running smooth and didn't seem to drop a cylinder.



i always wonder when things like this happen do you think its because poor break in period?
 

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Any chance of some pics of that piston OP?

Make sure you check out the replacement engine; it's important that it comes from a wreck or broken bike. Here in the UK we have seen some incidences of complete motors, replaced by BMW due to corrosion when under warranty, finding there way back into the food chain illegitimately. They should of course have been scrapped, with the occasional sample returned to Berlin at their behest & are owned effectively by the mother-ship. Hopefully the vendor, or your dealer armed with the engine number, can clarify - we don't want to see a whole new can of worms opening up for you.
 

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Discussion Starter #51
I talked with the ebay seller for about an hour about where the engine came from and whether he had run the engine prior to extracting it from the frame. It's quite obvious the warranty company hasn't fully read their own legalize contract BS, because there's a section in there that talks about replacing parts that don't come from the original manufacturer as long as they are LIKE parts. Well I found a part that's an exact replacement from the same manufacturer at a whole lot cheaper replacement value.

contract.jpg


As for the break-in of an engine the first heat cycle is the only one that counts. BMW does a break-in cycle on every engine. When they hook the engine up to that test station that checks for proper air flow through the engine they spin it up to about 2K. I have no idea how long they spin it for but that starts the ring seating process. Then when the bike is fully assembled they take every bike for a spin on the dyno and put it through a stress test and tuning refinement at point it is what it is. Unfortunately when the bike hits the showroom floor that's when the abuse starts. The bike is started repeatedly by sales people and free rev'd to show the customer what the engine and pipes sound like and then shut off. The bike never makes a full heat cycle. That's not what you want to do to a fresh engine.
 

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So I go to the BMW dealer today and look at the damage. #5 piston has a broken ring land between the two compression rings about an inch long aligned with the wrist pin hole. The #5 cylinder bore has a about an inch wide swath the length of the stroke in the same location where the nikasil coating has been wiped off. The tops of all 6 pistons looked unremarkable and showed absolutely no sign of pre ignition so that wasn't the culprit. The top compression ring looked like it just came out of the package where as the bottom compression ring a bit beat up and the ends of the ring were very shiny like they had been rubbing together. So I'd have to say on a guess the ring gap wasn't big enough on the bottom compression ring and in that micro second of seizure broke the ring land which allowed the ring to release and over lap itself and start pumping oil. The repair tech seems to agree with me on this conclusion.



Now we get to the fun part. RPMONE is the extended warranty provider and they're telling me that they will only fix this problem with parts supplied by BMW. She also tells me that one of their inspectors has to look at the damage and assess what should be done. Then she tells me the inspector can't reach the BMW tech to setup an appointment to see the damage meanwhile the BMW tech was on the phone with the inspection guy while I was outside at the dealer having a cig. I also gave the warranty provider the option of replacing the engine with a used motor and the result of that was "we can't do that". See where this is going yet. OK so I'm supposed to wait months for these parts which don't exist at the present time to be shipped to the BMW dealer so they can fix the bike. Not in this life time. A 2018 K1600B/GA complete engine and tranny with 1800 miles on it is available on ebay for $2300, guess who bought it. And no that's not a $25 question. I called the BMW tech and told him the engine will be delivered to his door on the 2nd of January and that I'd be there on the 4th with a blank check and my riding gear to take the repaired bike home.


This going to get very interesting because I have a lawyer in my pocket who I've been friends with for over 20 years, and is also a riding buddy, who is a virtual pit bull that doesn't let go and just loves dealing with people that don't hold up their end of a business deal.



All you old time machinists will appreciate this: Like I always told my boss, "The hard things we do right away the impossible takes a tad longer". And then there's my all time favorite axiom" "If you need to achieve the impossible all it takes is money".


So hang tight folks I'm sure they'll be more to come .....................................
Did you have a Bren Tune on your bike? Stage 1, or Stage 2?

I imagine your plan is to trade the bike in on a 2019 once the Stop Sale is lifted?

Personally, I think I would have given RPMone a bit more time to figure things out, and hopefully come thru for you in the end. But since you’ve already chosen to embark on a different path, I hope it still works out well for you in the end. Keep us posted.

And if you don’t have a Bren Tune, this should NOT have happened. BMW should be stepping up to flip the bill, warranty or not. You were not abusing the bike, so if the engine can’t handle 7000RPM, then why is Redline at 8500?
 

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i always wonder when things like this happen do you think its because poor break in period?
Unlikely, very unlikely. This sounds like a severe failure of what is a highly engineered (and proven) system. The ring breaking is probably a manufacturing or assembly defect that just worked its way to the point of failure.
 

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Discussion Starter #54
The path I've chosen is to get my bike repaired ASAP. If I go the path RPMONE wants to take I'll probably be dead before the bike gets repaired. Yes I have a stage 2 Bren tune installed. No the bike has never seen the red line as there's absolutely no reason to go there. Once you get past your torque curve your not accelerating anymore your just making noise and beating the sh!t out of the engine. If you want proof of that just attach an accelerometer to your handlebars so you can watch the G force drop off at about 7200, at least that's where my bike starts to nose over. And yes as soon as the stop sale is over there's a shiny new left over silver with GT graphics 2019 K1600GT that has my name on it waiting for me. As for how I dealt with RPMONE I spent the better part of 2 hours trying to explain to them that I was well within the contract to purchase the engine from an outside source and that I was saving them money by doing so. But as the saying goes: "You can lead a horse to water ............".
 

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As for the break-in of an engine the first heat cycle is the only one that counts. BMW does a break-in cycle on every engine. When they hook the engine up to that test station that checks for proper air flow through the engine they spin it up to about 2K. I have no idea how long they spin it for but that starts the ring seating process. Then when the bike is fully assembled they take every bike for a spin on the dyno and put it through a stress test and tuning refinement at point it is what it is. Unfortunately when the bike hits the showroom floor that's when the abuse starts. The bike is started repeatedly by sales people and free rev'd to show the customer what the engine and pipes sound like and then shut off. The bike never makes a full heat cycle. That's not what you want to do to a fresh engine.

I couldn't agree with this more. I don't know what BMW advises for break-in to a customer. My bike was purchased with 1800 miles already on it. I've built several HD motors over the years. once I get a base MAP for tune the only break in I do is 2 complete heat cycles (let engine idle until the rocker cover is hot to touch, then cool completely). Then I take the bike out for 10 runs from 30-60mph in 3rd gear. I go from 30mph and roll on to 100% throttle until 60mph. Then close the throttle and engine brake to 30mph and repeat. Once that is done it's off to the dyno to get a full tune. All the HD's I've worked on like described have held consistent compression and leak down for many years and thousands of miles.

Zach
 

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Discussion Starter #56
Unlikely, very unlikely. This sounds like a severe failure of what is a highly engineered (and proven) system. The ring breaking is probably a manufacturing or assembly defect that just worked its way to the point of failure.

And I would have to agree with you 100%. This just falls into the category of SH!T HAPPENS.
 

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Any chance the tech noticed if the ring was installed in the correct orientation when he took it apart. I've seen rings installed upside down that were the cause of oil consumption. They also can "flutter" when this happens. Not sure of the ring thickness on these motors, but if they are somewhat thin I could see how breakage could occur.

Zach


And I would have to agree with you 100%. This just falls into the category of SH!T HAPPENS.
 

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Discussion Starter #58
Any chance the tech noticed if the ring was installed in the correct orientation when he took it apart. I've seen rings installed upside down that were the cause of oil consumption. They also can "flutter" when this happens. Not sure of the ring thickness on these motors, but if they are somewhat thin I could see how breakage could occur.

Zach

The ring didn't break. It was the land on thee piston between the compression rings that broke. I'm going back to the dealer tomorrow to talk about what's going to happen and make him aware of the part re-reimbursement policy that's in the RPMONE contract. I'll take some pictures this time.
 

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Got it. I mis-read the original post on your findings. Pics will be interesting.


Zach


The ring didn't break. It was the land on thee piston between the compression rings that broke. I'm going back to the dealer tomorrow to talk about what's going to happen and make him aware of the part re-reimbursement policy that's in the RPMONE contract. I'll take some pictures this time.
 

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Broken ring land problems are not unique to K1600 motors. Ford Coyote motors too have had this problem. Broken ring lands are normally attributed to a lean running condition. It's the price you pay for a high performance, finely tuned engine.

Duane
 
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