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Broken ring land problems are not unique to K1600 motors. Ford Coyote motors too have had this problem. Broken ring lands are normally attributed to a lean running condition. It's the price you pay for a high performance, finely tuned engine.

Duane

I thought the broken ring land problems were behind us with the software update. I wonder if the Bren Tune code like atc250r said had anything to do with it.
 

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Broken ring land problems are not unique to K1600 motors. Ford Coyote motors too have had this problem. Broken ring lands are normally attributed to a lean running condition. It's the price you pay for a high performance, finely tuned engine.

Duane
I don’t buy that. This isn’t a Moto GP bike. The K1600 is marketed as a sport- touring bike. Blown engines shouldn’t be expected in that category of motorcycle.


I thought the broken ring land problems were behind us with the software update. I wonder if the Bren Tune code like atc250r said had anything to do with it.
Since it was a Stage 2, I would be inclined to say Yes. Since this is the first report on the forum of a blown engine in a post-2013 bike in a long time, it’s quite the coincidence if the tune isn’t related.
 

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@atc250r, just do a piston ring land failure Google search. You'll find hundreds posts about piston ring land failure, e.g. Subaru, Ford, etc. For years I was under the impression that the piston problems of the newer K bikes was a piston manufacturer problem. @Arizona Jim, has long said it was a mapping problem addressed with a software update. I'm leaning more and more towards Jim's theory.

Duane

Duane
 

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@atc250r, just do a piston ring land failure Google search. You'll find hundreds posts about piston ring land failure, e.g. Subaru, Ford, etc. For years I was under the impression that the piston problems of the newer K bikes was a piston manufacturer problem. @Arizona Jim, has long said it was a mapping problem addressed with a software update. I'm leaning more and more towards Jim's theory.

Duane

Duane
For the 2012 bikes, it very well could have been a mapping issue causing the piston failures. When BMW issued the Green N software update, that seemed to have taken care of the piston issues. And the bikes continued to run just as fast after the update, so that’s why I disagree with your earlier post saying that blown engines should be expected for a finely tuned machine. The bikes ran just as quick and reliability was vastly improved after the update, so why should we expect broken pistons? I expect touring bikes to run 200,000 miles before needing major engine work. Moto GP bikes and other high strung engines, not so much. The K1600 is a touring bike and should not break piston ring lands.. If they do break on a stock bike, there are issues that need to be addressed. (And that’s why the green N update was issued)

K1600’s haven’t been breaking pistons since the update came out (2014), so when a 2018 bike with a modified fuel map blows up, it makes me question the reliability one may be giving up when re-mapping these bikes.
 

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@atc250r, Not saying you should expect 'blown engines', just an occasional broken ring land groove..

Duane
 

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A K1600 engine is dumb, fat and lazy compared to the 1000 cc high performance engines. K1600 produces 160 hp from 1650 cc, which is roughly 97 hp per 1000 cc or for our ISO challenged American friends about 1.6 hp/cui.
Latest naturally aspirated 1000 cc engines from Honda, BMW of Kawasaki put out 215 hp which more than twice as much.
So I agree that engines like the K1600, the Goldwing or the famous 1400 cc air cooled Suzuki or Yamaha should go well North of 100.000 miles without any failures of core components. And I will probably stay away from the Stage 2 flash for a little longer as I doubt that I can get adequate high octane gas across Europe.
 

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@atc250r, Not saying you should expect 'blown engines', just an occasional broken ring land groove..

Duane
Again, I disagree. I expect zero broken ring lands on a touring bike with 40,000 miles.

Heck, I don’t expect broken ring lands until 200,000 miles on a touring bike.
 

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Again, I disagree. I expect zero broken ring lands on a touring bike with 40,000 miles.

Heck, I don’t expect broken ring lands until 200,000 miles on a touring bike.

Your right.. However the facts are a lot of broken land problems, BMW came out with new code and no more broken land problems. 3rd party code installed and we have a broken land problem. Coincidence? I don't know but I would contact Bren Tune and give them a heads up just to be safe.
 

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Discussion Starter #69
Soooooooooo, I stopped by the BMW dealer today and got some pics and talked to the tech about my engine coming in on the 3rd and when he'd get around to putting it in the frame.


IMG_0566.jpg Other than being covered in oil pistons look fine.


IMG_0568.jpg Top compression left Bottom compression right you can see a little wear on the right one


IMG_0570.jpg Top compression ring no wear on the gap surface


IMG_0569.jpg Bottom compression you can see wear on the gap surface that's a bit concerning


IMG_0571.jpg This would be the specially designed #5 piston with built in oil bypass


IMG_0573.jpg This is the broken bypass valve


IMG_0574.jpg These were replaced on the 18K service a couple have blow by on the threads a sign that they weren't tightened properly


This concludes today's show and tell session


More to come ................................................
 

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If the minor mapping alone is causing piston failures (especially with the second ring) we have a very poor quality or marginally designed piston or engine.


Is the cyl and ring clean enough to measure end gap?
 

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Discussion Starter #71
If the minor mapping alone is causing piston failures (especially with the second ring) we have a very poor quality or marginally designed piston or engine.


Is the cyl and ring clean enough to measure end gap?

I couldn't get at the block or I would have checked the ring gap and it wouldn't matter which hole I used they're all within a tenth of each other according to BMW.
 

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If the minor mapping alone is causing piston failures (especially with the second ring) we have a very poor quality or marginally designed piston or engine.


Is the cyl and ring clean enough to measure end gap?
OP, sorry to hear of your engine failure, that plain sucks!

My opinion is mapping is very important. I don't care who's engine or piston or rings are in there. If the cylinder pressures/and or heat are too high coupled with maybe a tad too much timing it's going to fail at some point. Seems odd to me that if there was a ring gap issue initially that it took 40K miles to create a problem. Do we think the plugs were loose from an improper torque or were thing's changing shape slightly?

Just some thoughts of mine on the subject. I don't know about you guys but the way I ride my bike coupled with my not so perfect hearing and music from the Sena mine would have to ping like a loose rod before I heard it. I doubt most of us with a helmet on and 80 mph wind could hear an engine ping. Now at a low speed take off, probably. Case in point my brother @Sweet1600B not too long ago spit rods out of the block on a Honda ST1300 work bike. He didn't hear anything but did see the smoke! :)

@svfiat I sincerely hope this all works out well for you!
 

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Discussion Starter #73
How the warranty company figures things out:



So the warranty company wouldn't pay for the motor that I acquired from ebay it was a complete 2018 B motor with 1800 miles on it that cost $2291. That would have been too easy, no they want to pay for a single piston replacement because the inspector thinks that the cylinder was in good enough shape and didn't need refinishing. There's no way I'd agree to that. Now the BMW dealer is trying to do a computation of cost to do it the warranty company's way and he's up to $6900 which includes the tear down and isn't finished yet. There's already a $1600 charge for taking the motor out of the frame and tearing it down which RPMONE is responsible for. Seems as though BMW doesn't have a shop rate for replacing just one piston and that's where RPMONE and the BMW are bumping heads. In the mean time BMW has my replacement motor and will be installing it into the frame on Tuesday and Wednesday. Hopefully I'll be riding the bike home on Wednesday or Thursday and I'll only be a sub $5000 out of pocket, the cost of the motor and labor. So at the end of all this I'll have a few extra bucks for gas and basically a bike with a new motor in it that I can trade-in when the stop sale ends, for the 2019 GT. Got to love how bean counters do their job.


Hopefully one more post with a happy ending and this thread is done .....................................
 

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The path I've chosen is to get my bike repaired ASAP. If I go the path RPMONE wants to take I'll probably be dead before the bike gets repaired. Yes I have a stage 2 Bren tune installed. No the bike has never seen the red line as there's absolutely no reason to go there. Once you get past your torque curve your not accelerating anymore your just making noise and beating the sh!t out of the engine. If you want proof of that just attach an accelerometer to your handlebars so you can watch the G force drop off at about 7200, at least that's where my bike starts to nose over. And yes as soon as the stop sale is over there's a shiny new left over silver with GT graphics 2019 K1600GT that has my name on it waiting for me. As for how I dealt with RPMONE I spent the better part of 2 hours trying to explain to them that I was well within the contract to purchase the engine from an outside source and that I was saving them money by doing so. But as the saying goes: "You can lead a horse to water ............".
The warranty company would be an insurance company so they won't want to pay any more than they have too. Do as your done don't give up keep being a pain in their arse and threaten them with a court case they will soon change their attitude. In Australia, we have consumer affairs and fair trading that are government-backed. You guys would have the same type of organisations I am sure that should be able to help you achieve your gold. I wish you nothing but good luck and please keep in there as you will win. Remember those that cry the loudest in most cases get what they want to cry hard and loud. Please keep us up to date as you have being doing all along, I for one would love to see you win.
:wink::smile:
 

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Sounds like the dealer should just lay out the two repair options side by side. I'm sure RPMONE will start to see things your way.



So what is your plan for the broken engine?

Zach


How the warranty company figures things out:



So the warranty company wouldn't pay for the motor that I acquired from ebay it was a complete 2018 B motor with 1800 miles on it that cost $2291. That would have been too easy, no they want to pay for a single piston replacement because the inspector thinks that the cylinder was in good enough shape and didn't need refinishing. There's no way I'd agree to that. Now the BMW dealer is trying to do a computation of cost to do it the warranty company's way and he's up to $6900 which includes the tear down and isn't finished yet. There's already a $1600 charge for taking the motor out of the frame and tearing it down which RPMONE is responsible for. Seems as though BMW doesn't have a shop rate for replacing just one piston and that's where RPMONE and the BMW are bumping heads. In the mean time BMW has my replacement motor and will be installing it into the frame on Tuesday and Wednesday. Hopefully I'll be riding the bike home on Wednesday or Thursday and I'll only be a sub $5000 out of pocket, the cost of the motor and labor. So at the end of all this I'll have a few extra bucks for gas and basically a bike with a new motor in it that I can trade-in when the stop sale ends, for the 2019 GT. Got to love how bean counters do their job.


Hopefully one more post with a happy ending and this thread is done .....................................
 

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Discussion Starter #76
Sounds like the dealer should just lay out the two repair options side by side. I'm sure RPMONE will start to see things your way.



So what is your plan for the broken engine?

Zach

Probably save the transferable parts, starter, alternator, injectors, ignition coils, throttle body ................... and junk the rest. I got a set of 5 pistons that would make lovely paperweights ..................
 

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Devil's Advocate:

Say RPMOne pays for a used engine transplant without knowing the TRUE history of the used engine. Five miles down the road it blows a piston... Now they are on the hook for another repair.
 

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Discussion Starter #78
Ok folks this is the last chapter to this saga: Let's start with the piston.
IMG_0580.jpg After hours of searching for the casting symbol of a circle with the numbers 487 within it I came up with nothing. Not deterred by that I searched for the unique physical property of the piston. The obvious is the inside of the piston is not machined at all. But the real tell is the cross hatched design at the bottom, you can plainly see it in the pic. So I searched through litterally thousands of pictures of pistons to find that cross hatch design and you guessed it, I found it. Whoever it was that made the wise @ss comment in jest that the pistons were made in China, hit the nail on the head. These pistons are manufactured by the WoTech Corporation based in China. I also took the time, because I had so much else to do, to measure certain characteristics of it and found the wall thickness varies as much as .030" , not a good sign of quality.


I went to the BMW dealer and found that they still hadn't come to an agreed price of repair with RPMONE, but the bike had the new motor in it and was running as expected, no smoke and smooth as silk. I just looked at the repair shop manager and said, "I don't give a sh!t about what RPMONE is doing I got a blank check in my pocket, what's the finally cost of the R&R of the motor". He told me, I wrote the check and now I'm a happy camper because I can go on a long ride with the guys tomorrow. The new motor seems to be quieter with less top end noise and the transmission seems to shift a tad smoother. I couldn't have asked for more except for all the aggravation of the who's on first dialogue throughout the process of repairing the bike.


As for RPMONE, at some point in time they'll come to an agreement of the cost of the repair and that check will come directly to me. So basically it all evens out in the wash.



Ride safe people I got a few miles to make up..................................
 

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thanks for great report. Another parameter is piston weight which in a modern manufacturing process does not need adjustment or grouping in weight categories. Just check it without the rings.
 

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It's great to hear you are back on the road. Your attitude during this ordeal is commendable and should allow you to put it all behind you and enjoy your future rides.


Pleas follow up when RPM1 finalizes things, I have RPM1 and would like to know how it ended up.
 
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