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First off; yes, I'm fargen crazy!. Now that this issue is settled...

In my vast amount of power toyz, for the last 10 years, I have been outfitting my toyz to HID. Dang, it was that Caddy CTS I bought that started my craze on this expensive hobby!

So I naturally have been (trying) to migrate over to LED. It's been a tough, long road people. I'm now on my 8th pair of LED's that I'm currently testing (in my different toyz, from snowmobiles to this K16 project).

Here's the bottom line for retrofitting 3rd party LED capsules with a reflector not designed for it, and this IS wrote in stone....

1st up
, yes, they look bright looking at them. But it's funny. Take them out on the road and this so called brightness is magically gone! yep, disappears.
2 reasons
, the reflector housing is built for a halogen where the light source is much closer to the reflector. With LED, the diodes are much further out and away from the reflector. Next and this is very strange to someone without the LED experience that I have with these, but the light type (not just the Kelvin scale color either) is "absorbed" differently. Signs and reflective stuff will stick-out way more with LED's (or HIDs) BUT!... with LED's other objects like trees, grass etc somehow "absorb" some or a lot of the LED luminance light wave.

Solution, You have to "way" overpower (luminance wise) to make up for the two problems above^. So equal lumens for halogen vs. LED? Halogen wins hand down as far as USEABLE light goes. The second issue of placement within the reflector is a Mfgr' issue and not really at that. These reflector housings are built for what they are intended to use. So no fault of the Mfgr., there housing works as intended.

Solution Part 8, Well, save yourself the money, and "let me do the testing". That pretty much is the theory on my snowmobile, atv and FJR forums. I'm Okay with it and I'm known as the lighting guru lol. I do own a Sound & Stage Lighting Co., certified in both Argon and Diode Lasers, so yes, this is in my field of expertise. So, here is my No.8 test. This set boasts 3600lm and a draw of 40watts (each). No canbus error.

Halogen on left, LED on right (of course!)




Now as far as this application goes. Look at how much father out the actual cree diodes are from the reflector.




This changes 2 things dramatically. 1; beam is wider, not nearly as narrow as the halogen was. I myself however always thought that this bikes HB was to be way too narrow. I would like a more disbursed light as well, but don't eally wanna give up the spot (long distance spot beam) either. Now if you're following along w this, I mentioned^ how LED's luminance get absorbed (or do not illuminate as much on certain objects/things, but do better on reflective surfaces?) you need fire-power! Lots of it! well, if you wanna make up for the reflector's offset to the light source anyways.

Conclusion, In the garage, it's like a carbon arc Super Trooper spot light. Okay, you probably have no idea what I'm yapping about, but it's very super intense. On-the-road tests (so far) have only included me pointing the bike outwards and to the neighbors yard. Looks really good so far, I don't wanna jinx it though, as I said this is my 8th set I've tried so far. Things change once the 100% outside tests begin (when the sand and salt get washed off the roads here). This HB only application has an advantage over some of my other T&E dual beam applications. So maybe, just maybe... this 8th time will be a charm! (TBC)


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On my other Forums ...remember, I'm the lighting guru ;), I've had plenty of excitement from peeps buying the cheap Chinese junk on eBay, looking at the color temps in the housing (fool!) and thinking they just bought the world. hehe.

Checkout one of my FJR friends video who did a lower powered LED outfit. Do yourself a favor (if you have any inkling of doing this) and watch the video. Yes, the whole video. His excitement and what happens next is worth the price of admission. Enjoy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=-TpR2wK_OA4


:)

 

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Discussion Starter #2
<edit in> I just got some PM's on this, let's keep it public [here, this thread] so I don't have to answer all the redundant q's

So I should of added... These capsules have fan units on the back side. It's tricky getting a model to fit inside our canisters (so the lid closes)... or you will have to drill a hole in the dust lid. I did not wanna do this, so my T&E included one's that would "fit" (barely) inside our dust lids without modification.

And... the installation was about 5 minutes,and another 5 mins to take off the speakers for access. So 10 minutes maybe total. On a scale of 1 to 5 (5 being a tough farkle install), this is a 1 at best.
 

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The video really shows what you're talking about in regards to the LED (at least the ones used) not doing a very good job of illuminating the road. Very interesting and I look forward to your road test.
My son-in-law has a DJ side job. He bought some Cree LED stage lights for his business. They produce 5 watts of power and are like a search light when directed out of his garage and pointed at a neighbors garage about 200 feet away. Unbelievable at how much light is put out with so little power (watts). My first thought was to mount a couple of these bad boy computer controlled swivel lights on my bike but their size and finding a handy spot to mount a laptop was too much of a challenge :eek:
 

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Do keep us posted when you get the bike out for a real ride.

LED high beams are on my farkle list, but I can wait until some other expert does all the costly R&D, like I've done with seats, windshields, HID lighting, etc. . . . :cool:
 

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Both my Harley and KLR are full LED bikes. The results are completely opposite.
The KLR has a set of Cree double sided aftermarket LEDs and they work great. The Harley has a factory Harley LED head light and it is marginable at best. Now the rest of the Whelen LED lighting on the Harley is very bright.
Currently on the Exclusive I have stock lighting and a set of Ericas.
 

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Thank you for sharing your results. The video was very surprising.
I'll be interested in hearing how your getting on.
 

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Do keep us posted when you get the bike out for a real ride.

LED high beams are on my farkle list, but I can wait until some other expert does all the costly R&D, like I've done with seats, windshields, HID lighting, etc. . . . :cool:

+1
Thanks for doing the r+d for us!
 

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The company I work for makes equipment that uses LEDs for illumination. LEDs can do a great job, but they need different focusing optics than conventional light bulbs. The headlight reflector needs to be designed to match the light source that is being used. You can't put any other bulb in there, be it an LED or a bulb with a filament and get the intended result, unless the new source is positioned in the same place as the original, and also disburses light around the reflector in the same way as the bulb for which the reflector was designed. That means that it is unlikely that a drop-in LED replacement bulb will yield the same results as the original bulb, unless the LED manufacturer can simulate the optical characteristics of the original bulb precisely, which due to the heat sinking requirements of high power LEDs, and the fact that LEDs emit light out of only one side, as opposed to all around like a light bulb filament, will be very difficult.

The various cars and motorcycles that are now available with LED headlights are only sucessful because they are using optics designed to work with LEDs. The same is true of after-market auxiliary LED lights from places such as Clearwater. Those reflectors you see surrounding each individual LED in a Clearwater light are each designed to work with the specific LEDs being used, because that's what they have to do to get the great results they are getting.

Cree makes excellent high power LEDs, but I suspect they expect the bulbs they are selling to be used in new installations with optics designed specifically for them, not to retrofit existing headlight bulbs.
 

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Topspeed,
Are you going to leave one side halogen and the othe led for testing?
That way you can do what the eye doctors do, cover one side, see how it looks.
Cover the other side see how it looks. Best way to get a side by side comparison?
 

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Topspeed,
Are you going to leave one side halogen and the othe led for testing?
That way you can do what the eye doctors do, cover one side, see how it looks.
Cover the other side see how it looks. Best way to get a side by side comparison?
I will do that, with a towel as the dowser. A/B it.

Forgot to asked, How is the fitment? And did you get any error codes?
Some fit, some not even close. Depends on how big the fan unit is... and if you want to have the dust caps correctly on. I chose the later (finally).


Will update.
 

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The company I work for makes equipment that uses LEDs for illumination. LEDs can do a great job, but they need different focusing optics than conventional light bulbs. The headlight reflector needs to be designed to match the light source that is being used. You can't put any other bulb in there, be it an LED or a bulb with a filament and get the intended result, unless the new source is positioned in the same place as the original, and also disburses light around the reflector in the same way as the bulb for which the reflector was designed. That means that it is unlikely that a drop-in LED replacement bulb will yield the same results as the original bulb, unless the LED manufacturer can simulate the optical characteristics of the original bulb precisely, which due to the heat sinking requirements of high power LEDs, and the fact that LEDs emit light out of only one side, as opposed to all around like a light bulb filament, will be very difficult.

The various cars and motorcycles that are now available with LED headlights are only succesful because they are using optics designed to work with LEDs. The same is true of after-market auxiliary LED lights from places such as Clearwater. Those reflectors you see surrounding each individual LED in a Clearwater light are each designed to work with the specific LEDs being used, because that's what they have to do to get the great results they are getting.

Cree makes excellent high power LEDs, but I suspect they expect the bulbs they are selling to be used in new installations with optics designed specifically for them, not to retrofit existing headlight bulbs.
Well, most of this was disclosed in the original post. ;)

But if you want to get more in-depth on this....

As far as LED's being built for a certain enclosure and/or reflector, well, this goes without saying, and, hence my (almost) rant and my pointing out the Cree's distance to the reflector etc. I even posted an image of this for that reason.

One huge thing you failed to color-in is why LED's (in housings made for LED's) are so successful (like Erica's, Darla's etc) ....vs these 3rd party aftermarket fitted ones. (drum roll......) the #1 reason....

Heat disbursement!

Focusing w correct housing is right up there of course, but none of this is possible without the Hi-Powered LED's, and they won't work without controlling or getting rid of the heat.

Hi-powered LED's do put out some heat, not a lot per-say or what we are use to, but LED's themselves have a much smaller tolerance to heat. So when a housing/fixture is built from scratch for Hi-Power LED, it's done the correct way -along- with the focusing compliment that you (and I prior) mentioned. Main difference, the proper heat-sinks, fans etc. to get the output lumen's needed.

My application (post#1); max lumens per LED watt is almost 100. So for every watt of LED power, you get just shy of 100 lumens. This is the maximum efficiency out there right now. The one's I'm using are 3600lm, draw 40w as mentioned in post#1.

On a grand scale of LED. My neighboring Syracuse (NY); Ephesus Corp. is making all the Hi-Powered LED's for the new Vikings Stadium in Minnesota, due to open in 2016. The field lighting, which normally was handled by Metal Halides in other Stadiums, now has finally come of age to LED!. I think Arizona has retrofitted some of their MH's to LED, but as far as ground up, and 100% built and designed for it, this gem of a Stadium will be King.

 

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I recently scored a set of HID's from Diode Dynamics, who purports to make a higher quality, better outfitted HID for cars and bikes. They came complete with a capacitor, the appropriate resistors, HID cancellor, and a waterproof HD 30A relay so they could be separately powered from the battery. I brought up all of the concerns mentioned on this forum and in this thread, and DD still contends that it will be no problem to use this set of H7 HID's for the high beams (including taking into account the issue of quickly turning them on and off as a possible cause of early HID death).

I will report back after I do the conversion, and we shall see.

Best,

Dave R.
 

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I recently scored a set of HID's from Diode Dynamics, who purports to make a higher quality, better outfitted HID for cars and bikes. They came complete with a capacitor, the appropriate resistors, HID cancellor, and a waterproof HD 30A relay so they could be separately powered from the battery. I brought up all of the concerns mentioned on this forum and in this thread, and DD still contends that it will be no problem to use this set of H7 HID's for the high beams (including taking into account the issue of quickly turning them on and off as a possible cause of early HID death).

I will report back after I do the conversion, and we shall see.

Best,

Dave R.
Hey Brotha Dave, what's up!? and, are you going to any of my organized meets? (SW Ohio Ramble or the Penn-Run). Hopefully you'll BE there!!! :)

On the HID's. I've converted almost 20 sets so far on all my different stuff, and friends. I've had the best luck with the Phillips/Osram capsule-ballast combo. I actually have tried 4 different sets in my K16 (H7 HB) as well.... None worked to my satisfaction for the HB. In fact, some didn't work at all with the voltage flux. And yes, I've tried AC ballasts, DC, all digital, error correcting etc etc...

The set that finally worked for me, still did not "lamp-up" quick enough for (my) needs. I like to use my HB's as flashers as well, so I expect more of an immediate impact (like the LED does have). And before anyone tries to tell me how HID works by exciting the gas blah blah, I know all about it. I own Vari-Lights (Stage Lighting) that uses the technology now and for over 20 years.

Post up yur results however Dave, I always need some R&D partners ;)

-KJ
 

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Very good thread. We grow a LOT of diodes and diodes wafers for various customers so this stuff is always cool. It's funny we grow them, ship to China to be assembled or used in things, then they come back to me in products like iPhones, LED lights or really any small electronics.

I can't wait to get a usable HID or LED lighting in the hi-beams. Thank you.
 

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Very good thread. We grow a LOT of diodes and diodes wafers for various customers so this stuff is always cool. It's funny we grow them, ship to China to be assembled or used in things, then they come back to me in products like iPhones, LED lights or really any small electronics.

I can't wait to get a usable HID or LED lighting in the hi-beams. Thank you.
Ya...make those Amtrak trains a little easier to see :k16:
 

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Very cool.....

I'll have to remember this when I attend my first Vikings game. :gm
Minnesota boy ya know.


On a grand scale of LED. My neighboring Syracuse (NY); Ephesus Corp. is making all the Hi-Powered LED's for the new Vikings Stadium in Minnesota, due to open in 2016. The field lighting, which normally was handled by Metal Halides in other Stadiums, now has finally come of age to LED!. I think Arizona has retrofitted some of their MH's to LED, but as far as ground up, and 100% built and designed for it, this gem of a Stadium will be King.

 

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That youtube video was scary. Can't wait to see if there's a way around this. BTW, I don't get why would you be so bent on keeping the back of the headlight covers intact? I think these parts should be relatively cheap, and as long as whatever you have to do is well done, why would you (or a potential buyer) care?

It seems to me that I'd replace the speakers and fit high powered Erika's or Olivia's there, no? :)
 
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