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International Man of Mystery
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2022 MI/KM:
13000 km
The pressure side of the pump drives the oil into the oilfilter before it enters sensitive parts of the engine oil circuit. Reduces the risk of metal contaminated oil entering the engine. Is that as perfect clean as a separate oil circuit for engine and trans? Sure not, but adequate.

As to the trans I like the 'cassette' type which can be pulled easily without taken the engine cases apart. Try that with some other brand and you will be surprised.
 

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I followed the path of the oil from the sump to the transmission and think it too is being filtered. Could be wrong, but that is how it appears.

Also, the description here indicates the same.

 

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I don't ever recall owning a bike or car that didn't have a sump, did I miss the briefing
My 1973 Norton 750 Commando and my 1975 Honda CB750 had a dry sump. Many motorcycles from the "old days" had a dry sump to keep the oil cool(er) and to allow for a greater total oil capacity without having a giant engine. Most British bikes had one, and even HD's which still have them. Some had a separate tank, some used the inside of the frame to store the hot oil.

And today, there are aftermarket kits to convert from a wet sump to a dry sump.

Back then you had to be careful not to add oil and overfill the engine. Yup, over 40 years ago it was a problem.

Here's the old Norton Commando dry sump system:


 

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The good old days. When a 50HP, chain drive, air cooled, 550 lb motorcycle with a big Windjammer fairing, a chrome luggage rack, and a $7 throttle stop was the ultimate coast-to-coast touring rig. The Gold Wing hadn't yet been produced, and when it did come out we didn't see a reason to get one of those goofy 850 lb things.
 

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Not accurate? The only way you will be 100% sure other than starting the engine with risk is to drain the oil. Sorry but that is very accurate. Everything else is just a theory that may or may not net out true and if engine damage is caused by starting it without being 100% sure would be on you and no one else here.

I'm not saying anyone is wrong nor engine damage WOULD occur but the bottom line for me would be to drain the oil and be certain. Why risk it for $50?

I know oil checking on a dry sump is a challenge I own and have owned several dry sump bikes but if my bike called for X liters and I THINK I put X liters I'd expect it to show up correctly if I am checking it correctly. If it doesn't then I wouldn't be riding the bike further until I was able to confirm the amount of oil in it. $50 wasted or not. I know, I've done it and I found I made an error.

But it's not my bike....good luck.

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No need to wish me luck, I'm not the one with the problem. You say it's the only way to be certain, see the response after yours. He says the only way to be certain is to follow the manuals instructions. The OP says he knows exactly how much oil he put in, and he has followed the manuals instructions. So what gives?

I'll challenge you to drain your oil when the dipstick shows the level to be correct. I'll bet you that you will not get within a 1/2 quart of the rated capacity of the bikes oil out.
 

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No need to wish me luck, I'm not the one with the problem. You say it's the only way to be certain, see the response after yours. He says the only way to be certain is to follow the manuals instructions. The OP says he knows exactly how much oil he put in, and he has followed the manuals instructions. So what gives?

I'll challenge you to drain your oil when the dipstick shows the level to be correct. I'll bet you that you will not get within a 1/2 quart of the rated capacity of the bikes oil out.
I'm not going to argue with you. My point was simple, if you want to be 100% sure without any doubt that the sump plug is installed correctly and you know exactly how much oil is in the bike is to start over in this case.

Yes, I am saying that is the only way to be 100% certain and what I would do. What you or the OP does is up to you but I know I wouldn't be asking the internet if it is safe to ride my bike and it if they know how much oil I put in or if they know if I installed the sump plug completely and correctly.

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I'm not going to argue with you. My point was simple, if you want to be 100% sure without any doubt that the sump plug is installed correctly and you know exactly how much oil is in the bike is to start over in this case.

Yes, I am saying that is the only way to be 100% certain and what I would do. What you or the OP does is up to you but I know I wouldn't be asking the internet if it is safe to ride my bike and it if they know how much oil I put in or if they know if I installed the sump plug completely and correctly.

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I did not know your point was to make sure the sump plug was installed correctly. That part I get.
 

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No, Ma-2 is because of using a catalytic converter.
Well documented on another thread about friction differences.

http://www.oilspecifications.org/articles/JASO_MA_JASO_MB.php

http://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/4T_EV1105.pdf

https://www.lubrizol.com/MCEO/Spec-Check/JASO-T903-Four-Stroke.html

Yes, there have been changes to motorcycle oil ingredients to make safer for catalytic converter use by reducing phosphorous and zinc. That is different than the tighter friction standard provided for with the MA-2 standard.

Many sites discuss the catalytic converter as a primary purpose in error. Going to the source of the standard JASO reveals the truth, it is about friction.
 

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I changed my oil after the Dragon get together and it was the first time it would not take all 5 qts. Almost but not all of it.

If, after warming the engine and checking the oil as per "the procedure" the dip stick is dry, the bike clearly needs more oil. Has the OP solved this mystery yet?
 
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Discussion Starter · #74 ·
Hi,


Sorry for the delay in responding. Working late at a client.


I decided to drain the oil so I could recheck the RL Super Plug and re-measure the oil.


The Super Plug was seated correctly. Removed it and drained all the oil - with the exception of removing the brand new filter.


Replaced the Super Plug and torqued as per RL's feedback.


Using a jug to measure quarts (note the Amsoil "liter" bottles actually only have 946ml in them - so four bottles come up 256ml short of 4 liters), I put in about 4+ quarts which filled to the point of just allowing the dipstick to go back in. Ran the engine for 30 seconds to suck the oil in. Then added the remaining oil (having to add some since some oil was lost during the draining of the engine and the difference in the "liter" Amsoil bottles) to get about halfway up the dipstick with the engine cold.


Ran the engine until the fan came on + one minute as per the manual. Turned off the engine, waited the one minute - checked the oil. Bang on the full mark.


So my conclusion is that I didn't have enough in the first place. 256ml missing since the Amsoil bottles are not a full liter plus a little needed past the 4.5 liters.


I think in the past I simply added until the oil showed the correct level on the dipstick rather than measuring using the number of bottles. My mistake and simply second guessing myself. (and no there was no beer involved - could use one now due to embarrassment). I believe I was roughly 1/2 liter short on my original fill - just enough to be below the dipstick level (I do have the new longer dipstick provided by the recall.)


I do appreciate all of the discussion around the mechanics of the engine and the willingness of everyone to provide such constructive help. Hopefully if nothing else this thread added to the education of the rest of us on the internals of this engine.


Special thanks to RL Lemke for all of the engine diagrams and explanations.


Dwayne
 

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International Man of Mystery
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saw that with Harley branded oils over here as well. Sold as 1 liter but in reality 0.946 l = 1 quart. Another way to screw the customer as their reference point to compare prices was based on a 1l unit.............
Thanks for sharing the story and now have a beer
 

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My eyes are blue, so my wife thinks I'M a half liter low....
 

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My eyes are blue, so my wife thinks I'M a half liter low....
My wife can tell without looking that I am a half liter low. Of course she married me that way, and has been running me lean ever since!
 

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The rear tank area (where the dipstick is) is linked to the lower area of the engine (first plug), so both of these form the oil tank.
The upper area (above the small plug) is the actual crankcase (Sump in the BMW doc)

The path is:
Tank (Yellow arrow at bottom of diagram), pump1, filter, bearings, sump. (Yellow in diagram)
Then pump2 cooler, tank (Orange in diagram)

I see two ways your symptom could occur:
1. The small plug is not in place, allowing oil to rise back up into the sump area., which would drop the level in the rear section of the tank.
2. The sump scavenge pump isn't working, leaving all the oil in the sump, but this would result in a low oil warning and no lubrication because the tank would be empty.

If you drain it again, note now much oil you get from each plug. Normally, the bulk of it should come out when the first is removed.
The second one (upper) should only release the oil that drained back down from the engine after shutdown.
 

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